Over in the comments of Grognardia's post about the DCC game (here), there were several bits from THOMAS:
So... is this true?
I declare that LotFP is non-committal philosophically, but it's not the Ref's job to create the tone they want - it should be the players'.
Look at A Stranger Storm, the intro adventure found in the Grindhouse Edition.
You can argue that saving nuns and children is the true goal of the adventure. If they're smart and/or heroic, the PCs can save a lot of innocent lives.
But if they're greedy and/or stupid, they can end up slaughtering innocent people (including babies) and each other for the sake of treasure.
And it's all up to the PCs. The adventure presents some situations and then lets the players decide what kind of game they're playing. I guess you can say it requires the players to decide what kind of game they're playing.
Is it nihilistic to allow them that choice?
Look at No Dignity in Death: The Three Brides. Nothing requires the PCs to get involved in the murder mystery beyond their own sense of justice. They can ignore it entirely with no bother. But that first portion of the adventure is all about seeing justice done and saving innocent lives.
The second part of the adventure (admittedly the weakest) is also about saving the innocent - but the opportunity is there to ignore the situation or even to be greedy and uncaring about life.
It's a choice that can be freely made with no enforced mechanical consequences. It's not a rigged game, it is a true choice to be decided entirely as one wishes.
(the third part's stance is a lot more open, depending on what the Ref decides happens as a result of trying to put O'Shaunnessy's spirit to rest, but I don't think requiring the PCs to choose between XP/wealth and Doing the Right Thing creates nihilism... to me, being good is entirely about sacrificing personal gain in lieu of more important things. The adventure asks "What's more important to you, game points or your sense of justice?" If it's always like that, there's an argument that it's nihilistic, but this is 1/3rd of an adventure where the other 2/3rds reward having that sense of justice)
Then there's this:
"Sure, not purely for nihilism's sake, but the section on alignment demonstrates that good/evil are merely ideas or opinions. This makes all ethical ideals baseless, including valuing life and respecting others."
I believe that good and evil really are merely ideas and opinions in real life. I don't believe in the supernatural or the divine in real life, and I do believe we're just animals whose brains and bodies and ability to organize work at a higher level than everything else on this planet.
This rather does make all ethical ideas baseless (we entirely made them up in order for society to function) but not necessarily foolish (each idea should be evaluated individually, but on the whole what's considered "good" and "ethical" are things that make our lives better by allowing us to trust our fellow man and therefore escape the constant paranoid survival mode of most animals).
I think the concept of "good" is much more powerful having been made up than if "good" really was defined for us and enforced from on high.
But it is undeniable that people we are supposed to trust (clergy, our elected representatives) can and do perform horrible acts, sometimes on their own in secret, sometimes openly as part of their jobs.
LotFP doesn't require you to put that sort of thing in your game. All your priests of the Happy Good Deity could indeed be Happy Good People and the game runs just fine as written.
But I think a game that enforces such things through establishing an objective good and evil in mechanical terms is childish and naive. It shuts down options. It dictates a two-dimensional world regardless of the wishes of its participants. What sort of thing is that to impose on a game design level?
... and by the by, Lovecraft isn't even as nihilistic as people like to think. One of my favorite Lovecraft stories is The Shunned House, which is all about combating a force hostile to mankind and winning. Though it pains ST Joshi and his ilk, The Dunwich Horror is a major Lovecraft work, I'd estimate top 5 in overall popularity and influence. That again is all about combating a force hostile to mankind and winning.
(the other four: Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness, Shadow Over Innsmouth, Whisperer in Darkness)
That the universe is vast and humanity is unimportant in the grand scheme? Completely irrelevant to your life and mine in the real world. We can make our lives and the lives of others happier and better through our deeds if we so choose.
That the LotFP game's "cosmology" has nothing to do with good or evil? Completely irrelevant to your players's choice whether or not to play a character as a hero or an enormous cocksmock or whether the Referee creates no-win situations for that character.
I read the back cover and hated the rejection of the concept of "hero" ala LotFP. It deliberately discourages the ideas of nobility, self-sacrifice for the benefit of others, honor, etc. Better to be non-committal philosophically, and let DMs create the tone they want. Game designers are trying to give their games a nihilistic bent, which I think is a mistake.
Sure, not purely for nihilism's sake, but the section on alignment demonstrates that good/evil are merely ideas or opinions. This makes all ethical ideals baseless, including valuing life and respecting others. The cosmology chosen in the alignment section leads to nihilism, which leads to the mercenary spirit, contra honor, nobility, heroism. Honor and nobility become opinions without base, no more intrinsically good than dishonor and evil. That cosmology stinks, and it is too bad that it is accepted by default.
I think this game, and LotFP, are both trying to make their games more unambiguously conformed to the nihilistic sorts of literary inspirations (e.g. Lovecraft). In other words, they are "purging" so to speak other works from Appendix N (Tolkien). AD&D was less committed to this nihilism than these two newer games.
So... is this true?
I declare that LotFP is non-committal philosophically, but it's not the Ref's job to create the tone they want - it should be the players'.
Look at A Stranger Storm, the intro adventure found in the Grindhouse Edition.
You can argue that saving nuns and children is the true goal of the adventure. If they're smart and/or heroic, the PCs can save a lot of innocent lives.
But if they're greedy and/or stupid, they can end up slaughtering innocent people (including babies) and each other for the sake of treasure.
And it's all up to the PCs. The adventure presents some situations and then lets the players decide what kind of game they're playing. I guess you can say it requires the players to decide what kind of game they're playing.
Is it nihilistic to allow them that choice?
Look at No Dignity in Death: The Three Brides. Nothing requires the PCs to get involved in the murder mystery beyond their own sense of justice. They can ignore it entirely with no bother. But that first portion of the adventure is all about seeing justice done and saving innocent lives.
The second part of the adventure (admittedly the weakest) is also about saving the innocent - but the opportunity is there to ignore the situation or even to be greedy and uncaring about life.
It's a choice that can be freely made with no enforced mechanical consequences. It's not a rigged game, it is a true choice to be decided entirely as one wishes.
(the third part's stance is a lot more open, depending on what the Ref decides happens as a result of trying to put O'Shaunnessy's spirit to rest, but I don't think requiring the PCs to choose between XP/wealth and Doing the Right Thing creates nihilism... to me, being good is entirely about sacrificing personal gain in lieu of more important things. The adventure asks "What's more important to you, game points or your sense of justice?" If it's always like that, there's an argument that it's nihilistic, but this is 1/3rd of an adventure where the other 2/3rds reward having that sense of justice)
Then there's this:
"Sure, not purely for nihilism's sake, but the section on alignment demonstrates that good/evil are merely ideas or opinions. This makes all ethical ideals baseless, including valuing life and respecting others."
I believe that good and evil really are merely ideas and opinions in real life. I don't believe in the supernatural or the divine in real life, and I do believe we're just animals whose brains and bodies and ability to organize work at a higher level than everything else on this planet.
This rather does make all ethical ideas baseless (we entirely made them up in order for society to function) but not necessarily foolish (each idea should be evaluated individually, but on the whole what's considered "good" and "ethical" are things that make our lives better by allowing us to trust our fellow man and therefore escape the constant paranoid survival mode of most animals).
I think the concept of "good" is much more powerful having been made up than if "good" really was defined for us and enforced from on high.
But it is undeniable that people we are supposed to trust (clergy, our elected representatives) can and do perform horrible acts, sometimes on their own in secret, sometimes openly as part of their jobs.
LotFP doesn't require you to put that sort of thing in your game. All your priests of the Happy Good Deity could indeed be Happy Good People and the game runs just fine as written.
But I think a game that enforces such things through establishing an objective good and evil in mechanical terms is childish and naive. It shuts down options. It dictates a two-dimensional world regardless of the wishes of its participants. What sort of thing is that to impose on a game design level?
... and by the by, Lovecraft isn't even as nihilistic as people like to think. One of my favorite Lovecraft stories is The Shunned House, which is all about combating a force hostile to mankind and winning. Though it pains ST Joshi and his ilk, The Dunwich Horror is a major Lovecraft work, I'd estimate top 5 in overall popularity and influence. That again is all about combating a force hostile to mankind and winning.
(the other four: Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness, Shadow Over Innsmouth, Whisperer in Darkness)
That the universe is vast and humanity is unimportant in the grand scheme? Completely irrelevant to your life and mine in the real world. We can make our lives and the lives of others happier and better through our deeds if we so choose.
That the LotFP game's "cosmology" has nothing to do with good or evil? Completely irrelevant to your players's choice whether or not to play a character as a hero or an enormous cocksmock or whether the Referee creates no-win situations for that character.
