... that some people in the RPG industry are very deeply ashamed of being in the RPG industry, and some gamers really hate themselves.
Check this.
And this (Skarka-Mona fight in there is especially revealing).
And this.
Here's a free clue courtesy of your Uncle Jim: If you have enough interest in Role-Playing Games to be reading forums or blogs about them, let alone posting to them, you're a goddamn gamer. No exceptions.
Here's another: There are two types of gamers: Those who actually play, and those who do not. All other distinctions, while not meaningless, are inconsequential in the grand scheme of role-playing. Those who do play, and play often, no matter how stupid or no matter how smelly or Cheeto-stained their shirt, even if they're playing FATAL or Rahowa or giggle while raping cabin boy's necks, are superior to those that don't game but like to comment on it anyway, no matter how many degrees or real-life friends or how sophisticated or "well-socialized" they may otherwise be. In fact, I laugh loud and hard when people complain about not being able to find a group because all the gamers around them are losers. Yeah, they're gaming and doing the thing you want to do but won't, and they're the losers. Mmm Hmm. Somewhere along the line, the "No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming" idea got polluted with, "Unless everyone at the table is exactly like me and plays the same way I do, it's Bad Gaming."
Yet another: Pencil. Paper. Dice. Imagination. A traditional role-playing game requires all of these, and traditional role-playing is my hobby. I don't care if you have an app for that, if you show up to my games without any of the first three, they will be provided for you and you will use them. If you don't have the fourth, well, shit, wrong hobby for you!
Me, I'm leaning towards believing that the unnamed "cool online tools" which were "pretty much tailor-made for roleplayers" were by definition about as useful, or cool, as titties on a cheese grater. Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned cattpiss fatbeard lawncrapper cynical relater-to of content, but when I'm in some heavy preparation, I go one of three routes:
Check this.
And this (Skarka-Mona fight in there is especially revealing).
And this.
Here's a free clue courtesy of your Uncle Jim: If you have enough interest in Role-Playing Games to be reading forums or blogs about them, let alone posting to them, you're a goddamn gamer. No exceptions.
Here's another: There are two types of gamers: Those who actually play, and those who do not. All other distinctions, while not meaningless, are inconsequential in the grand scheme of role-playing. Those who do play, and play often, no matter how stupid or no matter how smelly or Cheeto-stained their shirt, even if they're playing FATAL or Rahowa or giggle while raping cabin boy's necks, are superior to those that don't game but like to comment on it anyway, no matter how many degrees or real-life friends or how sophisticated or "well-socialized" they may otherwise be. In fact, I laugh loud and hard when people complain about not being able to find a group because all the gamers around them are losers. Yeah, they're gaming and doing the thing you want to do but won't, and they're the losers. Mmm Hmm. Somewhere along the line, the "No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming" idea got polluted with, "Unless everyone at the table is exactly like me and plays the same way I do, it's Bad Gaming."
Yet another: Pencil. Paper. Dice. Imagination. A traditional role-playing game requires all of these, and traditional role-playing is my hobby. I don't care if you have an app for that, if you show up to my games without any of the first three, they will be provided for you and you will use them. If you don't have the fourth, well, shit, wrong hobby for you!
Me, I'm leaning towards believing that the unnamed "cool online tools" which were "pretty much tailor-made for roleplayers" were by definition about as useful, or cool, as titties on a cheese grater. Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned cattpiss fatbeard lawncrapper cynical relater-to of content, but when I'm in some heavy preparation, I go one of three routes:
- I have two pieces of graph paper. On one I sketch a map. On the other I jot down a key and monster stats. No books or anything else present. Adventure results.
- I read the module I plan to run. No other books present.
- I go all out at the kitchen table with a pile of books all open and spread out and I'm being really detailed and using all of the accumulated published tricks available to me... so on one piece of graph paper I sketch a map, and on the other piece of graph paper I jot down a key, and they are filly with mighty and meaty detail.
Anything else would be uncivilized.
Because let's not make any mistake about it. I am one of these difficult people being complained about.
How many non-OSR dollars or euros do you think I've spent on RPG products in the past 4 years? Zero, if we don't count dice. How many non-OSR dollars or euros do I really plan to spend on RPG products again? Ever? Guess.
Just like I'm skipping all of the big Finnish metal festivals this summer, again, with their hot acts that are the mainstream of metal fandom. Tuska, Finland's biggest metal fest, is a 20 minute walk from my house. Probably a good dozen festivals are out there in Finland aimed straight at the heavy metal fan, and I don't give a shit and I'm not going. Fuck 'em. They won't see a penny from me. Not one.
But I've put in orders totaling a couple thousand euros from OSR companies if we include all this stuff I'm carrying for Ropecon (And why wouldn't we? They're getting paid, aren't they?). Many times that on my own offerings to other people.
I'm going to Jalometalli again, an eight hour drive to a fest less than a tenth the size of Tuska, so I can see motherfucking Carcass play a 90 minute set (I passed when they came around a couple years ago playing a Heartwork-based set) and there will also be ANGEL WITCH and Lord Vicar and this is going to be Demilich's last show ever (again, hah)!
As you can see, I do have nice things, and I get more nice things all the time. They might not be what you think are nice things, or what businesspeople think would be nice for people like me. But I find what I like and I support it. That my support never shows up on any industry tracking is completely irrelevant to my decision to support something.
And next month I am releasing a big-ticket item to this same type of difficult, crabby, picky, cynical bastards, and there will be a ton of people questioning why anyone would ever buy such a thing. They are my people. I know what I'm getting into and what I'm risking.
If it doesn't sell, it's my fault, not theirs.
They resisted most desired behaviors (that is, the stuff that actually might make money).
ReplyDeletei lol'd.
Choice cuts. I very much enjoyed this article. Mostly because the early portion basically explains whats wrong with my group. Player's A and B are done playing with the group because Player's C and D are different and new. But, player's C and D carry that original - I've never done this before it's a great game - kinda style to the table. And I like it, a lot. Reminds me of the early gamer days when we so innocently stumbled upon a dust-covered version of the 1st Ed PHB and MM, and someone said, hey let's try this.
ReplyDeletePreach it. Thumbs up
ReplyDeleteV
I will first state I have not yet read the articles you linked, I have read your article however and need to point out a glaring flaw in logic.
ReplyDeleteIf you refuse to game with the people in your area you have found who are losers, that does not make you a loser. That makes you a human being with a life outside of gaming.
I game, I am a gamer, I am not JUST a gamer. I am also a worker drone with goals of more pay and a bigger office, I am a spouse, a poker player, etc etc.
I won't work for a total *&*# of a boss, I won't play poker with someone I don't like, I certainly wouldn't marry anyone I can't stand..
Why would I game with someone I can't stand? If my need for gaming is so great I would play with people I find detestable (say those who want to play FATAL half-naked and smeared with cheeto dust (seriously, get chopsticks for Cheetoes) I would say that would make me pathetic if not a loser.
And I am a gamer, I play and like games. But its just one hobby, and while it would suck to be deprived of it I wouldn't give up other portions of my life to indulge in it.
I use the rule that If I wouldn't hang out with you if you weren't a gamer, I wouldn't hang out with you just because you are. (the same with any other aspect of my life).
I've had people join games that disrupted things and caused other people to become unhappy. But that's based on individual personal behavior at my table.
ReplyDeleteI didn't prejudge, and frankly it really doesn't much matter to me what my players do when they're not at my table. I really don't see much of any of them beyond gaming days, really.
Top link is just another instance of "Yer doin it wrang!!!" only dressed up in MBA dronespeak.
ReplyDelete* Instead of having social conversations, they focused on concrete goals.
* They related to content in a cynical fashion.
* They dissuaded other users from getting involved with the content.
* They resisted most desired behaviors (that is, the stuff that actually might make money).
* They complained all the goddamn time.
All these things are part and parcel of what draws us to gaming in the first place: we don't want to be spoon fed a load of focus-grouped consensual pabulum. We like making our own entertainment, and we like to tinker and kitbash whatever toy is given to us.
Massive target market comprehension FAIL!
I read Malcolm’s article, and despite myself I sat through the bulk of the EN-World bullsh*t. I would not say that Malcolm hates gaming, gamers or being a gamer, and from a business perspective I think he makes a point. Have companies steered away from tabletop gamers due to their perception of them? Yes. Should you necessarily do something about it? No. Malcolm (whoever he may be) is one of those people who a) genuinely fears RPG extinction and b) wants to see some form of mainstream embrace that would propel gaming in new directions intended to make it a long term viable entity. Let me compare it to something from my local area:
ReplyDeleteThe U.P. Off-road 100 truck race is something I remember from my younger days as a bunch of local guys in trucks they modded at home racing around a dirt track in a field for the fun of it. That was not the extent of the vision some had for what it COULD BE and so they worked and promoted and strived for bigger and better recognition. Now the race is a Traxxas “TORC” championship CORR sanctioned race held at the “Bark River International Raceway”, featuring professional drivers which gets aired on the Speed Channel. You can find its website here: http://www.upoffroad100.com/
The point is that as nice as all that is, and it is great for the local economy with many race fans flooding into Bark River every year, there are still people who wish it was a bunch of local guys in trucks they modded at home racing around a dirt track in a field for the fun of it. Those folks are thought of in much the same light as the gamers Malcolm’s comments were aimed at. If you come in and change and “extend” a hobby people enjoy and morph it into something else at least some of them will not like it and they will complain. Loudly. It’s unreasonable to think otherwise, and if that makes them an undesirable market group, well, they probably don’t care.
Agreed with Zzarchov on not being a loser if you choose not to game with those available; it makes me choosy. Life is too short, etc.
ReplyDeleteI have talked to several folks I found on NearbyGamers, Meetup and similar sites, and they don't want gaming, IMO; they want amateur theater and dramatics. I played with a 1e group briefly last year, too, but I got powergaming munchkinism out of my system when I was a teenager, so I dropped out.
This isn't even broaching the subject of letting Comic Book Guy or Cat Piss Gamer into my home, but that's a discussion for another time.
Micheal, how may people are really going to enjoy a hobby that is a mixture (and I am paraphrasing) of wargaming, improve theater and double entry bookkeeping? Not many.
ReplyDeleteThe reason this hobby is not larger despite RPG games and fantasy media is its weird.
The big hope was the Peter Jackson EQ and later WoW would bring lots of people into the hobby and the big fear was that the hardcore would sdrive them out.
There is some truth to that but WoW and the other on-line diversions have something this hobby will never have, ease of use.
Gaming is hard, inconvenient and time consuming.
A good segment of the population can't get an interest level high enough to pay the input costs. Its not money, the cost of entry is crazy low, but time and energy.
The Internet as I well know is seductive and simple ad there are a lot of other choices.
Back when gaming was briefly big (you could buy games at say Sears) the target market had less choices (no Internet, many people did not have video games and more) and society was more face to face social.
That era of TT gaming popularity is long gone and probably won't come back.
The fact this hobby endures as much as it does, I'd guess that half as many per capita play now, is a testament to how much fun it is.
Instead of applying the marketing machine to such a PPCOC hobby to "grow its model" maybe we need to try to game with friends who aren't gamers and let nature take its course.
I want very much to quote you: "Pencil. Paper. Dice. Imagination. A traditional role-playing game requires all of these, and traditional role-playing is my hobby. I don't care if you have an app for that, if you show up to my games without any of the first three, they will be provided for you and you will use them. If you don't have the fourth, well, shit, wrong hobby for you!"
ReplyDeleteThat just about says it all. Awesome. I want to print this out to set at our table when we run games at Cons.
I understand your point, and I agree with parts of it, but...
ReplyDeleteThose who do play, and play often, no matter how stupid or no matter how smelly or Cheeto-stained their shirt, even if they're playing FATAL or Rahowa or giggle while raping cabin boy's necks, are superior to those that don't game... Yeah, they're gaming and doing the thing you want to do but won't, and they're the losers.
I call bullshit. I have found myself playing in groups like this, particularly when I first moved here and hadn't yet found players to form my own group. It was a miserable time and no, it wasn't better than not gaming at all. If wanting to game with people who don't have caustic body odor and zero social skills makes me a snob, then snob is a mantle I will gladly wear. Degree, socio-economic status, and all that means jack to me, but I do prefer not to game than to game with a bunch of obnoxious jackasses.
The trick is to game with people who aren't obnoxious jackasses. I have been fortunate enough to find a supply of such people.
"Yeah, they're gaming and doing the thing you want to do but won't, and they're the losers."
ReplyDeleteThis. In oh so many ways.
"Those who do play, and play often, no matter how stupid or no matter how smelly or Cheeto-stained their shirt, even if they're playing FATAL or Rahowa or giggle while raping cabin boy's necks, are superior to those that don't game... Yeah, they're gaming and doing the thing you want to do but won't, and they're the losers."
ReplyDeleteLike Ryan said, the fatal (LOL) flaw in this argument is the notion that despite all their many faults and just being all-around obnoxious, gross people, that these folks are somehow able to still do one thing right: Be fun to game with.
In my experience, this is simply not so.
Spending time with people like this, in any context, is far from what I "want to do."
5stonegames,
ReplyDeleteMaybe I explain myself badly, but what I was trying to do was agree with James while still giving this Malcolm guy some "technical points" for probably being right about why companies stay away from marketing specifically to a gaming audience. I specifically stated that I didn't think that gamers as a "target market" (or whatever it is they think we should be) should do anything about that.
The racing example was meant to show that in any hobby that starts with essentially a grassroots movement someone will come along and want to "grow it into something bigger". The Off-road 100 is now a televised event with national sponsors and what-not, but I personally miss the "good ol' days" when it was just local guys racing for fun.
Anyway, sorry I did a crap job of explaining that. I thought I had something pretty clever there, but apparently not. Long story short, I agree with everything you said in your post, which was far better written than mine, and was not expecting anyone to jump on me using what I thought was my own argument.
There are people who want to push (or place) gaming into a more central location in mainstream entertainment (i.e. Malcolm) and their goals are not our goals. They find a certain type of gamer inconvenient to their plans, but I figure that's their problem. If they want some sort of D&D-centric, transmedia explosion complete with a live action TV show or whatever the hell it is they want that's fine, but they can't expect me to like it or to not say that I don't like it.
Michael. I did not mean to sound like I was taking a chomp out of you. If I did I apologize. And I have nothing to disagree with you in your post either, it was just confusion.
ReplyDeleteIf you can't find a local group, find an online group. There are enough tools, both free and pay to play, that allow one to find the group that suits them and their schedule.
ReplyDeleteIts also a great way to avoid the body odor ;)
Great post, James. Here's something else to encourage the increase and spread of gaming: teach your kids to play. I have 4 (a boy and 3 girls) and they love it when Dad breaks out the dice and paper. They've invited their school friends to come play. It's the only way I can see us passing on the Pen, Paper, Dice & Imagination game we learned to play. And we can also teach hygiene, tolerance, and proper social etiquette.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience, the Cheeto-stained odorific mouth-breathers don't make good gamers. The poor social choices that lead to their real-world state manifest in the game as well, and make for bad D&D.
ReplyDeleteAs for business models, I think Malcolm's real conclusion should be that certain business models just don't mix with certain types of users, but that doesn't make either of them "bad." TTRPG Gamers are like any other enthusiast - you can't sell them a finished product and social niceties; you can only sell them kits and a community of fellow enthusiasts.
I game with friends.
ReplyDeleteI don't see anything virtuous or pleasant in simply gaming for the sake of gaming, come what may.
I don't get what the whole fuzz is about. Someone called hardcore gamers a crappy market segment, and all of a sudden the hardcore gamer online community is in uproar?
ReplyDeleteJust as a note, but what hardcore community has *ever* been a good market segment? The word "core" in hardcore implies that the hardcore is but a small part of a much larger mass, like the core of the Earth is but a small part of the whole Earth itself. Small core = small group of people = shitty market segment.
ReplyDeleteThose who do play, and play often, no matter how stupid or no matter how smelly or Cheeto-stained their shirt, even if they're playing FATAL or Rahowa or giggle while raping cabin boy's necks, are superior to those that don't game but like to comment on it anyway, no matter how many degrees or real-life friends or how sophisticated or "well-socialized" they may otherwise be.
ReplyDeleteNo. This is ridiculous hyperbole.
About two weeks ago, I finally got fed up enough with the Monty Haulism, super kewl character powerbuilds, and in-game torture and other morally inexcusable mayhem my DM/group of the past 17 years engage in to tell them to shove it. These people are the worst kind of scum imaginable, barely eking out a half-assed existence outside of gaming so they can loaf around for hours on end twice a week and pretend to be irredeemably evil superpowered world conquerors. It's the worst sort of escapism and mutual fantasy masturbation imaginable. Gaming (and drugs) are the sole reason these people get up in the morning (or more often the late afternoon) at all.
And you mean to tell me that they are somehow "superior" to me? I don't think so. I'm a better gamer, heck I'm a better person, than they are any way you slice it. On the other hand, I think it's finally turned me off gaming entirely, so I won't be commenting much anymore either..
Just the kind of attitude that makes for lapsed gamers. But not much surprise, coming from Jim - pretty much the poster child for:
ReplyDelete* not having social conversations
* relating in a cynical fashion
* dissuading others from getting involved
* complaining all the goddamned time...
Here's a free clue courtesy of uncle Murphy.. if you don't understand something - ranting about it in a way that frankly proves the point may not be the best way to respond.
dhowarth-
ReplyDeleteI hope you change your mind. Don't let douchebags ruin it for you, or someday they will be all that remain. You can always find a better group... it ain't easy, but sometimes it's the road you have to take.
"Here's a free clue courtesy of uncle Murphy.. if you don't understand something - ranting about it in a way that frankly proves the point may not be the best way to respond."
ReplyDelete"Because let's not make any mistake about it. I am one of these difficult people being complained about."
I understand just fine.
@5stonegamess has the best response.
ReplyDeleteHe understands the NPD process and marketeering.
As for the cantankarous gamers, well, some truth to it.
I suggest you go GENCON folks. The beating heart of gaming is the mob, not the dusty marble of those with tenure or savvy.
Armies of lame-ohs playing soul-less RPGA events structured to 3.5 hours with absolutely no challenge.