Something's been bugging me about Wednesday's post. Something rather obvious.
If that set could be a reality, in that form, that would be all that we actually really need. No need to point to another rules set, no "graduating" from there to a more advanced or complete form of the game. All of the levels could be included in the box, as higher levels are really just a matter of extended spell lists, and OD&D and Meepo's Holmes Companion show that it doesn't take all that many pages to detail them (even if there is Mentzer level detail to the spells, it wouldn't take that much more room). This could be it.
Not that further supplements and adventures wouldn't be excellent, and even vital to the game (see my notes on that matter here), but the idea that the intro set should be anything less than a fully playable, never-need-anything-else product is foolish from a hobbyist standpoint.
What we need is not an intro to the game to be readily available and easily digested by people. What we need is for the entire game itself to be readily available (and easily affordable!) and easily digested by people.
Now I'm envisioning a game book in the form of a magazine, 128 pages, with everything in it, and the Mentzer-style tutorial intro as an attached (centerpiece pull-out?) item. Attach a covermount CD with various optional rules and adventures and idea-builders and maybe historical essays on role-playing and different methods of playing. Two versions: Book-with-extras for the existing hobbyists, and the box version for luring in the kiddies. I think this could be done with a retail price of under $15 ($20 for the box?), especially if third party publishers sponsor the deal through ads (maybe a pay-for-inclusion on the CD, like the music mags do it?) in the back.
I would still put dice and a full-length adventures printed adventures (and the reading guide!) in the box. Remember that the theoretical audience for this is people who have never played before. Kids who will see the cover art and go "Cool!" Give them as much as possible to work from.
If that set could be a reality, in that form, that would be all that we actually really need. No need to point to another rules set, no "graduating" from there to a more advanced or complete form of the game. All of the levels could be included in the box, as higher levels are really just a matter of extended spell lists, and OD&D and Meepo's Holmes Companion show that it doesn't take all that many pages to detail them (even if there is Mentzer level detail to the spells, it wouldn't take that much more room). This could be it.
Not that further supplements and adventures wouldn't be excellent, and even vital to the game (see my notes on that matter here), but the idea that the intro set should be anything less than a fully playable, never-need-anything-else product is foolish from a hobbyist standpoint.
What we need is not an intro to the game to be readily available and easily digested by people. What we need is for the entire game itself to be readily available (and easily affordable!) and easily digested by people.
Now I'm envisioning a game book in the form of a magazine, 128 pages, with everything in it, and the Mentzer-style tutorial intro as an attached (centerpiece pull-out?) item. Attach a covermount CD with various optional rules and adventures and idea-builders and maybe historical essays on role-playing and different methods of playing. Two versions: Book-with-extras for the existing hobbyists, and the box version for luring in the kiddies. I think this could be done with a retail price of under $15 ($20 for the box?), especially if third party publishers sponsor the deal through ads (maybe a pay-for-inclusion on the CD, like the music mags do it?) in the back.
I would still put dice and a full-length adventures printed adventures (and the reading guide!) in the box. Remember that the theoretical audience for this is people who have never played before. Kids who will see the cover art and go "Cool!" Give them as much as possible to work from.
Yeah...THAT is a cool idea. I was lamenting the fact a bit earlier that there actually wasn't a hobbyist game offered in a type of package such as you describe.
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about marketing this type of product, and unfortunately my opinion is more than biased, (of course it sounds viable to a guy who's been entrenched in the hobby for 30+ years already.) but it seems to me that if if could be affordably done and have a decent distribution channel, then there's no reason it couldn't succeed.
To add, I'd open up some type of project site where some of us that aren't quite as prolifically creative are able to donate to the project either monetarily or via some at-hand resource (own a print shop, box company, etc.).
I really like the idea though James.
Why wouldn't you just put Swords & Wizardry into a box with Tomb of the Iron God and some dice? What am I missing?
ReplyDeleteSwords & Wizardry is not written for a complete novice. Haven't seen the adventure, can't comment on it.
ReplyDeleteWhy bother with the box. Include the printed adventure in the rule book and sell it on the magazine stand like all the music and computer mags with the DVD Rom on the front and load up the DVD with a ton of goodies.
ReplyDeleteBrit music mags like that sell for $15-$20 bucks here in the state. Do one with different cover art and adventure each quarter with it themed for the time of year.
That might not be the complete game, though. Have short spells lists (do you need more than 2-3 spells of levels 7-9 here...plus more can be on the DVD ROM).
>>Why bother with the box.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the statement over on Grognardia: "to people outside the hobby, you buy a game in a box, at least if it's a game you're going to pick up for kids to learn."
It really could be as simple as putting S&W or Labyrinth Lord into a box with some dice and a module. A couple of ads for Knockspell, Fight On!, and a list of blog web addresses.
ReplyDeleteBut this would need someone willing to cover the cost of printing up about 10k of these boxed sets (probably $50-100k)and putting them into distribution. I don't know about magazine racks per se, but Walmart, Target, bookstores, toy stores (especially the "educational" ones), and even drug stores and highway rest stops all need to have a copy sitting on a shelf. Tough to do, very tough.
It would be a huge financial gamble, but it could pay off, who knows...;-)
I should have mentioned that so far, this old-school renaissance has flown pretty much under the radar.
ReplyDeleteBut the day those 10,000 boxes hit the shelves...? A good idea to make sure whatever rule book is in that box adheres to the OGL *very* closely, with no questionable or gray areas.
no "graduating" from there to a more advanced or complete form of the game
ReplyDeleteThere are two entirely distinct archetypal rule-sets for D&D. Mentzer D&D is perfect for youngsters or novice adults. 1st ed AD&D is perfect for adults who have experience gaming.
There is no need for an excitable search for a one-hat-must-fit-all rule-set. Anything fit for attracting and educating a new generation of old style D&D gamers would not be fit for seasoned gamers.
>>>It would be a huge financial gamble, but it could pay off, who knows...;-)
ReplyDeleteTrouble is, it starts the whole TSR-WOTC-Hasbro cycle all over again.
In order to get national distribution, you're talking a huge investment. To make that investment, you're either independently wealthy or you need investors.
Those investors, in turn, want a return on that investment. And, more likely than not, nobody will be interested in a "one and done".
So you need a plan for follow-on books, adventures, miniatures, and so on.
And before you know it, you have 10 editions of rules, licensing out the wazoo, and libraries full of crappy books with no justification beyond pumping up the bottom line and the return on equity.
... and an active community of grumbling old-schoolers who lament how much better it was in the old days!!!
I think that the game does need to be in a box. In my early days of gaming, I had a few friends who had trouble grasping the concept of a game you played out of a book. (We were ten so give them a break) Once I busted out the "red dragon" boxed set of the Basic Rules, it became something everyone could engage... and gradually we all moved on to the Rules Cyclopedia and the AD&D 2nd Edition core books. Still, I don't think I'd have gotten a few of them on board (no pun intended) without putting it in a box so it "played like a game."
ReplyDeleteI'm not feeling the love. The target audience of: "those of kids whose parents buy them games/toys at Target, to be opened up and played with no prior experience" is not worth worrying about.
ReplyDelete* D&D isn't really playable out of the box.
* D&D is best with an experienced DM.
* Selling pulp fantasy reading guide to kids, bzuh?
* How well does structured make-believe sell anyway? It's not a toy, it's not quite a game. If we're talking about a product designed to penetrate markets, distributors and retailers will care.
>>The target audience of: "those of kids whose parents buy them games/toys at Target, to be opened up and played with no prior experience" is not worth worrying about.
ReplyDeleteI'd say this is the only target audience that really matters, for the long term.
>* D&D isn't really playable out of the box.
Horsey poo poo. Mentzer was. No experience, no clue, all by yourself, playable *immediately.*
>* D&D is best with an experienced DM.
Every experienced DM was once a clueless beginner. And many of us started with no prior experience with the game because we didn't know anyone else who played.
>* Selling pulp fantasy reading guide to kids, bzuh?
Damn right. They likely won't care, but there will be some who will, and it's very sad that so much of the important literature that was the foundation for D&D's concepts is unknown to D&D players.
>* How well does structured make-believe sell anyway?
In the millions of units, once upon a time. No reason in the world to believe it couldn't at least sell in the many, many thousands these days.
In order to get national distribution, you're talking a huge investment. To make that investment, you're either independently wealthy or you need investors.
ReplyDeleteOr a true non-profit RPGA type group similar to the NMRA which partners with publishers (who have an interest in getting new gamers) to produce it.
>>>Or a true non-profit RPGA type group similar to the NMRA which partners with publishers (who have an interest in getting new gamers) to produce it.
ReplyDeleteWhere are you intending to sell it? Toys R Us? Wal-Mart? They're going to want a major supplier/producer behind the product. They're going to insist upon liberal return policies for unsold product and you're going to front the money for store displays and whatnot.
Something along that partnership line would be fine for a product targeted to gaming shops, small bookstores, and the like. But if you want true *national* distribution in the places where Ms. Soccer Mom is going to buy it for little Timmy for Christmas/birthday/whatever, you need major backing.
I'm not trying to wizz in anybody's cornflakes here. Rather, I've just dealt with some of these national chains and I know the sort of backing they expect behind products that they put on their precious little store shelves.
You know what a box set ment for the kids of today, the kids who have no knowledge of the roots of the game, really needs?
ReplyDeleteA copy of the collected John Buscema era Savage Sword of Conan comics. The squeekers of today don't know pulp, or Howard, or Lieber, or any of the media that fed the origin of the game, but they understand comics and that's your way to make the connection.