... I'm thinking about gods and other such "superior entities" and how they relate to gaming and campaigns.
Religion isn't something that gives comfort, and worshipping a deity isn't done because you've picked a cosmic side or because you agree with what that god stands for. You follow a religion because the god is real and you worship it because if you don't, you won't gain its favor and the world out there is a very cruel place.
If there is a pantheon set up like the Greek or Norse gods, then you don't pick one of the bunch to worship. You follow them all, even the ones with alignments directly opposed to yours, because you still encounter their domains in your life and The God Of Random And Slow Deadly Death is probably the god you need to placate the most even if you like it least.
But on a pulpier level, the gods aren't the creators and wardens of slices of creation. The gods are just beings of great power who are drunk on that power and people worship them because they have power, and religion and worship is a zero-sum game to these entities. I'm thinking Hawks over Shem (forget the issues with de Camp's changing of a Howard non-Conan story into a Conan tale for a moment... and I only know the Thomas/Buscema/Alcala graphic adaptation anyway!), with King Akhîrom declaring himself a god (leading to a moment of supremely bad judgement) and outlawing the worship of Pteor, the previous chief religion of the city-state. The high priest of Pteor is burned alive (along with 100 noble children of the city). But this line: "Weep not overmuch, however, for Abdashtarth, priest of Pteor. He himself has slain thousands of Pelishtim children the same way, in times of crisis."
That's gamey-time religion to me.
Religion isn't something that gives comfort, and worshipping a deity isn't done because you've picked a cosmic side or because you agree with what that god stands for. You follow a religion because the god is real and you worship it because if you don't, you won't gain its favor and the world out there is a very cruel place.
If there is a pantheon set up like the Greek or Norse gods, then you don't pick one of the bunch to worship. You follow them all, even the ones with alignments directly opposed to yours, because you still encounter their domains in your life and The God Of Random And Slow Deadly Death is probably the god you need to placate the most even if you like it least.
But on a pulpier level, the gods aren't the creators and wardens of slices of creation. The gods are just beings of great power who are drunk on that power and people worship them because they have power, and religion and worship is a zero-sum game to these entities. I'm thinking Hawks over Shem (forget the issues with de Camp's changing of a Howard non-Conan story into a Conan tale for a moment... and I only know the Thomas/Buscema/Alcala graphic adaptation anyway!), with King Akhîrom declaring himself a god (leading to a moment of supremely bad judgement) and outlawing the worship of Pteor, the previous chief religion of the city-state. The high priest of Pteor is burned alive (along with 100 noble children of the city). But this line: "Weep not overmuch, however, for Abdashtarth, priest of Pteor. He himself has slain thousands of Pelishtim children the same way, in times of crisis."
That's gamey-time religion to me.
I can get behind this. Gods in D&D should be weird, capricious, powerful, weird, jealous, vengeful, weird, egotistical, scheming, and - above all - weird. Even relatively comfortable and familiar deities like Odin or Pelor should have bizarre pagan cult practises, manipulative agendas, and a sense of danger about them.
ReplyDeleteI'm currently working on a pantheon for my home game that takes pointers from the BECMI Immortals Set, Jeff Rient's Pantheonator, OD&D/Thool Scott's version of the Wilderlands pantheon (sadly deleted), and Trollsmyth's various gods. It seems the more weirdness, inter-cult rivalry and 'local colour' I add to religions, the more the players like the idea of playing clerics.
Children were harmed in an S&S story? Does the internet know about this?
ReplyDeleteBeen thinking about this a lot in relation to my new Greyhawk campaign. In real polytheist religions like Hinduism, you worship the bad along with the good. Kali is not a 'devil' to be scorned but a goddess to be revered. So how can I make that work with Greyhawk? I'm thinking my (evil) Great Kingdom is going to worship (good) war god Heironeus along with (evil) war god Hextor, only with a change of emphasis. My (good) Nyrond will see Hextor the way the Greeks saw Area, cruel and capricious, but still to be placated. While the Great Kingdom sees him the way Rome saw Mars, as the glorious lord of conquest. Both will revere Heironeus as a god of tactics, victory, and honour, a bit like Athena.
ReplyDeleteI think OD&D makes this a little easier because it lacks the Good/Evil axis to alignment. A Lawful deity can still be a terrible entity that you might worship more out of fear than any agreement with the principles of order.
ReplyDeleteJim, how does this fit in with your recent post about your interpretation of clerics? Are you planning to take the Olden Domain in a different direction, deity-wise?
>>I think OD&D makes this a little easier because it lacks the Good/Evil axis to alignment. A Lawful deity can still be a terrible entity that you might worship more out of fear than any agreement with the principles of order.
ReplyDeleteI think it's more interesting if you have the Good/Evil axis and have this system in place. If your god of the sea is an evil, malicious bugger (why else would he send all those storms to shipwreck so many boats?), that doesn't stop superstitious sailors, even decent, kind folks, from praying (or sacrificing!) to him for safe passage.
Paladins and other goody-goodies become a weird thing depending on which gods have which alignments. What if your fertility god is lawful evil, what if your god of love is chaotic evil, and your god of death is lawful good and your god of disease is chaotic good?
What would paladinhood look like on such a world?
>>Jim, how does this fit in with your recent post about your interpretation of clerics? Are you planning to take the Olden Domain in a different direction, deity-wise?
The Olden Domain and the place where the PCs are from are pretty much alien to each other. The PCs' religion isn't practiced in the Olden Domain, and no religion in the Domain is even known about in the civilized world.
I'm always all about weird shrines to wicked, obscure gods, but they all tend to look samey when all is said and done. It's that sameyness that I'm addressing.
This is how I run gods in my games. I got inspiration for the idea of gods as not creators but super powerful people from comic books of all places.
ReplyDeleteI can't think of a specific comic but I figured if there was someone who could fly, was invincible, could move mountains, and shoot lasers from their eyes than I'm sure people would start worshiping that person as their god. The person may be reluctant at first, or they may already be of the mindset that they are a superior being who deserves worship. Either way others would flock to that person as followers and such.
Now if there were dozens or hundreds of super powered people like that I would think society would largely revolve around these people and how they react to all these followers.