Pardon me for being a bit belligerent, but I've been pretty much wasted (in a non-chemical sense) the past couple days, lounging around in bed, and sitting in front of a keyboard trying to make a fantastic location come to life and only being able to produce drivel.
Swirling purple psychedelic mist! The results of a thousands-of-years-old massacre still laying on the floor fresh as the day it happened! Golden mining tools on a pedestal! A meteorite sitting right there!
And that's one room. You'd think I could make that sound interesting, right? Not today, apparently.
I did make the girlfriend watch Boat Trip, and her reactions to that movie gave me some joy, at least.
(hint: the movie sucks so bad you can watch Cuba Gooding Jr's acting career evaporate during the course of the film)
Since being productive today is out of the question (it's very nearly 1am as I type these words), but I'm trying to delay going to bed quite yet, I'm going to speak on a subject that annoys the shit out of me.
Horror in gaming. Horror as a gaming "genre." Mixing horror and fantasy gaming.
It's a good idea, but you'd never know it by the way people implement it.
First things first:
If you have any sort of sanity or fright mechanic that applies to player characters, your idea is already very bad. Throw it away and start over.
For the exact same reasons morale rolls don't apply to PCs. And especially forcing these kinds of mechanics for situations that normally happen in "non-horror" games without that check. Skeleton pops out of a casket in your normal D&D game? "I ATTACK!" "I TURN UNDEAD!" But if it's horror? "Roll your horror mechanic check to see if you're freaked out and develop OCD or piss your pants and drop your sword!"
... or how about this?
"The werewolf springs through the window and attacks poor Jurgensen the innkeep!" In your normal D&D game? "*Roll* It hits, doing *rolls* 12 points of damage. Jurgensen dies instantly as the creature tears out his throat! What do you do?" But if it's *gasp* a horror game, it goes a bit differently. "*roll* It hits, doing *rolls* 12 points of damage. Jurgensen dies instantly as the creature tears out his throat! Make a horror mechanic check, and if you fail I'll tell you what you do!"
"I read the book." If it's your average D&D game, then reading the book of mystical lore will be full of spells that your character can learn. If it's a special and powerful book, it will earn you (or cost you) a bunch of experience points. But in a horror game? "I read the book." "Well now, it's full of magic spells, and reading this forbidden and secret lore warps your character's mind! Make a horror mechanic roll to see how badly your character loses his mind!"
Lame.
LAME.
LAME.
Using mechanics to force genre is shit. If you can't get your players to buy in to genre conventions in the first place, using rules to force them into it is a waste of time. Play something else. No, I don't have much respect for Call of Cthulhu's Sanity system. I think D&D's Ravenloft setting was written by people with big ideas but zero clue. You have to go to a special place that's scary to do horror? Really?
If you want to play a horror game or a horror scenario, don't fuck around and waste time telling your player how their characters are scared. Just scare them. Save the "This table will tell you how your character reacts" bullshit for the NPCs.
How to scare them? More about that in Part II, sometime over the weekend.
Swirling purple psychedelic mist! The results of a thousands-of-years-old massacre still laying on the floor fresh as the day it happened! Golden mining tools on a pedestal! A meteorite sitting right there!
And that's one room. You'd think I could make that sound interesting, right? Not today, apparently.
I did make the girlfriend watch Boat Trip, and her reactions to that movie gave me some joy, at least.
(hint: the movie sucks so bad you can watch Cuba Gooding Jr's acting career evaporate during the course of the film)
Since being productive today is out of the question (it's very nearly 1am as I type these words), but I'm trying to delay going to bed quite yet, I'm going to speak on a subject that annoys the shit out of me.
Horror in gaming. Horror as a gaming "genre." Mixing horror and fantasy gaming.
It's a good idea, but you'd never know it by the way people implement it.
First things first:
If you have any sort of sanity or fright mechanic that applies to player characters, your idea is already very bad. Throw it away and start over.
For the exact same reasons morale rolls don't apply to PCs. And especially forcing these kinds of mechanics for situations that normally happen in "non-horror" games without that check. Skeleton pops out of a casket in your normal D&D game? "I ATTACK!" "I TURN UNDEAD!" But if it's horror? "Roll your horror mechanic check to see if you're freaked out and develop OCD or piss your pants and drop your sword!"
... or how about this?
"The werewolf springs through the window and attacks poor Jurgensen the innkeep!" In your normal D&D game? "*Roll* It hits, doing *rolls* 12 points of damage. Jurgensen dies instantly as the creature tears out his throat! What do you do?" But if it's *gasp* a horror game, it goes a bit differently. "*roll* It hits, doing *rolls* 12 points of damage. Jurgensen dies instantly as the creature tears out his throat! Make a horror mechanic check, and if you fail I'll tell you what you do!"
"I read the book." If it's your average D&D game, then reading the book of mystical lore will be full of spells that your character can learn. If it's a special and powerful book, it will earn you (or cost you) a bunch of experience points. But in a horror game? "I read the book." "Well now, it's full of magic spells, and reading this forbidden and secret lore warps your character's mind! Make a horror mechanic roll to see how badly your character loses his mind!"
Lame.
LAME.
LAME.
Using mechanics to force genre is shit. If you can't get your players to buy in to genre conventions in the first place, using rules to force them into it is a waste of time. Play something else. No, I don't have much respect for Call of Cthulhu's Sanity system. I think D&D's Ravenloft setting was written by people with big ideas but zero clue. You have to go to a special place that's scary to do horror? Really?
If you want to play a horror game or a horror scenario, don't fuck around and waste time telling your player how their characters are scared. Just scare them. Save the "This table will tell you how your character reacts" bullshit for the NPCs.
How to scare them? More about that in Part II, sometime over the weekend.
Ha! Love the post Jim...
ReplyDeleteI agree 110%. Same thing goes for a lot of things in a role playing game actually. Why not describe a room instead of saying "Roll a Perception check". Good god I hate that...
Interesting topic. I can't wait too read the next part.
ReplyDeleteI agree about the Horror mechanic/ Sanity Points thing but I guess it keeps the game rolling..
In my abortive return to GMing I tried it creating a "horror" effect but I'm not sure how effective it was: the PCs just stood around waiting to see what would happen next when they should have been running. I was rusty and way too kind/fudging on the rolls when I should have let a couple die as the dice decreed.
Just to be clear, it's only mechanics that force players to adhere to genre conventions that suck, right? As opposed to mechanics to create genre-appropriate situations.
ReplyDeleteI've got a rough-draft of a game, also playable as a D&D supplement, with mechanics that determine when horrific events happen, plus a stat that tracks player character decay (they're turned into living dead by a curse, so things like attacks by seagulls cause them to look more horrific over time.) But absolutely nowhere do I say "players have to be scared by this" or "the characters have to be scared by this". Most of the horror comes from NPCs being afraid.
Simple and perfectly to the point, I agree with you 100%.
ReplyDelete"Just scare them", should be the mantra for anyone playing any horror game. Can't wait for part II.
Sorry, I disagree, at least with regards to CoC, and more in general, with what you think these sorts of rules are intended to show.
ReplyDeleteA sanity check is not a "you're scared now" check. A sanity check is to determine whether or not a character's mind shuts down because they have been confronted by the incomprehensible horror of something so utterly alien that their mind, literally, breaks. If you think a character should be able to ignore that because their player feels that way, then you might as well throw out injury-based debilitation modifiers due to pain/shock because a player could always say "I just ignore the searing pain in my leg and fight on as usual".
Second, the sanity check in CoC is being used because a character going insane is part of what defines the horror of HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. The CoC RPG is not a "horror" game; it is a game of roleplaying in HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos.
There is a BIG difference. If you are playing in, for instance, Robert E. Howard's Cthulhu mythos, then by all means, forget sanity checks. REH's mythos characters dealt with sanity checks by burying their swords in the bellies of these indescribable alien horrors.
But Lovecraft felt differently, and CoC decided to emulate his representation of how characters handle exposure to the mythos, both by going insane from some alien horror, or the slow descent into madness by coming into contact with "things man was not meant to know".
So really, if you're going to complain about "fright checks" and how dumb you think they are, leave Call of Cthulhu out of it. That game has those rules because it is trying to emulate a very specific style of gameplay and character experience. If you don't like that style, fine. But don't call the mechanics of the game "lame" just because you're not interested in that sort of gameplay.
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ReplyDeleteI totally forgot about that, Badelaire. Excellent points.
ReplyDeleteBut I think what James is trying to get at with this post is rather how to create a horror vibe at the table rather than a reproduction of a narrative structure.
While a Sanity Point mechanic helps recreate a Lovecraftian world-view, it doesn't necessarily mean that the end product will be a scary game, which is often hard enough when play is interrupted for sad Monty Python quotes etc.
On the other hand, I've often found that creating a literary effect often does require some kind of a literary structure, such as the set up for a joke.
I'm keen to read what James has to say as my approach is somewhat crude. The only way I can think of is by by not fudging the dice and letting PCs die when they decide to stare fascinated as something nasty tries to claw out of the NPC's skin... Thus just like in the movies, the horrible sudden death of these hapless PCs is the set up for the next time something potentially weird/scary happens, eg. the players will want to run first and investigate later.
My point is more that the attitude seems to be it's a "roll so I can see if I get to tell you what to do" mechanic. I don't look at it that way. It's more a "roll to see if you are stunned/shocked into not functioning correctly, because you just shit your pants with fear.
ReplyDeleteAnd my apologies to J.E.R. IV, but I will never be convinced there is some secret to making a game "scary". Yeah, you might creep out the players. Yeah, you might give someone the willies now and then. Yeah, you can play on a player's actual fears and mess with them some. But in my experience, the more you make an effort to make something "scary", the more the players will, unconsciously or not, resist that atmosphere and turn what you want on its head. As with your comment on Monty Python, a normal human reaction to stress and fear is humor; the more you "scare" your players by trying to run a "scary" game, the more some douchebag at the table is going to recite a line from Ghostbusters to break up the tension. I think it's simple human nature.
Perhaps Raggi's "just that good"; if so, he gets my applause, both for his laudable GMing skills, and his almost magical ability to find players who will actually consistently play a horror RPG straight. Unfortunately, for the 99.9% rest of us, such a magical alignment is a near-impossibility.
Back in October, I posted a column discussing the concept of what really happens to people when they are presented with a really terrifying situation. There was some talk about "just play it scary", but again, I have never, ever seen "scary" gaming work. I have seen players get the willies or get grossed out, but I cannot fathom "scary" gaming functioning beyond the level of "ghost stories told around the campfire with a flashlight under your chin".
Honestly, I think it's perfectly fine to adjucate that there is some chance that a PC just "freaks out". Part of what makes it scary is that yes, there is the possibility that you no longer have control over your character - for some players, that actually is scary. The loss of control, the fear that Joe Toughguy PC is going to finally crack and gibber like a lunatic at the wrong moment; I think that's a perfectly acceptable threat to hang over the heads of the players during a horror game. It's a common theme of a lot of horror stories, after all; why not use it to your advantage?
James, you touch on why I don't care for the Call of Cthulhu RPG. When I want Lovecraftian stuff in my games, I reach for Supplement V: CARCOSA (which is free of the sort of thing you decry here).
ReplyDeleteHaving the players decide for themselves to run like the devil is much more satisfying to me than having the dice tell the players what their PCs are doing.
I have never, ever seen "scary" gaming work. I have seen players get the willies or get grossed out, but I cannot fathom "scary" gaming functioning beyond the level of "ghost stories told around the campfire with a flashlight under your chin".
ReplyDeleteAs far as I'm concerned that's as good as it gets too - mission accomplished etc. That's pretty much the most effect I'll ever get from a horror story or movie. I'm too old to hide behind the sofa, say.
Honestly, I think it's perfectly fine to adjucate that there is some chance that a PC just "freaks out". Part of what makes it scary is that yes, there is the possibility that you no longer have control over your character - for some players, that actually is scary.
Perhaps an attribute check on Wisdom to see if they freak out? Maybe there's use for the poor, neglected Wisdom score after all... : )
The players and DM may have to agree before-hand though.
On the other hand, the fear of instant horrible character death is another way that the possibility of player control being lost can be felt.
>>A sanity check is not a "you're scared now" check. A sanity check is to determine whether or not a character's mind shuts down because they have been confronted by the incomprehensible horror of something so utterly alien that their mind, literally, breaks.
ReplyDeleteIt's the exact same thing with a different label. Save it for the NPCs.
>>So really, if you're going to complain about "fright checks" and how dumb you think they are, leave Call of Cthulhu out of it. That game has those rules because it is trying to emulate a very specific style of gameplay and character experience.
Call of Cthulhu is a (perhaps the) prime offender. I reject that its specific style of gameplay equals faithful Lovecraft emulation. It's just one possible interpretation of a subset of Lovecraft stories. Apparently it also uses numerous other sources as well, but I can't speak to that because I haven't read any of the post-Lovecraft mythos work.
Lovecraft is full people who don't crack under the pressure of the supernatural, and I don't think those stories are less horrific for it.
... not to mention that the "loss of sanity" in a Lovecraft is actually the gaining of real knowledge of how things are. If you discovered shambling horrors were real and magic existed, just by acting on this knowledge you'd just disconnect more and more from everyday society. In a meta-sense, any PC investigator should go directly to 0 SAN instantly on contact with any supernatural element, in terms of what the mechanic is supposed to represent in Lovecraftian terms.
"a very specific style of gameplay and character experience," is something I rigorously avoid on anything greater than a "this adventure right here" scale anyway. The last time I ran a superhero game, I think the players enjoyed it but I just scrapped the whole thing since the whole "supporting genre conventions" clashed horribly with the entire point of a role-playing game, "what if I was this guy, in this situation, what would I do?"
>>but I will never be convinced there is some secret to making a game "scary".
Then what's the point of even trotting out a horror game, no matter what the mechanics are?
I've usually handled the Call of Cthulhu Sanity mechanic as "mental hit points" more than "roll percentile to see if you're scared and/or insane". As such its comparable to D&D ability drain. The effect is pretty much similar, that is, the character is fucked if he runs out. Wether or not the player chooses to roleplay loss of sanity points is pretty much the same as wether or not he chooses to roleplay loss of hit points.
ReplyDeletehttp://modernappendixn.blogspot.com/ I mention how what seems to start off as military fantasy takes a turn for horror here as Guts faces Nosferatue Zodd and agree with your premesise in that if you have to force horror into the players the goal is already lost
ReplyDeleteWhat navdi said.
ReplyDeleteSanity is mental hit points. You don't let a player decide when her character dies from a sword cut, do you?
What's with the false dichotomy between body and mind anyway?
They don't belong in every game. But in some games how much of the horror you can take is what you are risking, just like what you can physically take before you die is part of DnD.
Sanity is mental hit points.
ReplyDeleteExactly so, I was just about to make the same point.
It seems odd to reject one artificial mechanism (fear checks) and accept others (hit points, saving throws, etc). The problem is that D&D is not a horror game per se, and the introduction of horror elements must be made keeping the genre intact. What works in CoC (and I personally think it works quite well there) is an affront to most "swords and sorcery" based gaming (EX "Grond the Barbarian, you can't swing your sword at the eldritch horror because you are overcome with the shakes" is antithical to heroic roleplaying).
ReplyDeleteSomething like a horror check, as a sanity check, is merely an attempt to imperfectly replicate a result that many players are not going to give you no matter the motivation....much like asking them to give me the results of what the mind flayer's blast did to them ("uh, I feel a little dizzy but I'm ready to kill the bastard!") instead of telling them "You failed your save, you fall to the ground writhing in mental turmoil for the next six rounds".
Yeah, I think Badmike is onto something. If you don't get buy in, you wont get horror. True.
ReplyDeleteAlso true is that a psychological defence mechanism is to try to laugh off fear, which break the mood around the table. Kind of hard, eh?
What I'd bring is my thesis that horror is not a genre. You can bring is skeletons or zombies in any game and it wont be horror. Horror is an attitude, not trappings. That's why buy in is important. Then I'd suggest that any game can work as horror as long as you have the right attitude.
The attitude that you can bring to the table can surely be helped with some GM techniques, and I'm curious about what Jim will bring in part II.
But, I'd say that game mechanics to reinforce genre wont work, since it's not a genre. But, if you got the attitude, it wont hurt either.
The other problem with horror is people don't realise how horrifying situations are. Lots of people play FPS games and blast bad guys, they don't go into PTSD and spend the rest of their life dealing with it. A level 0 holding a knife to a first level character in a dark alley, thats nothing. A person jumping you in an alley and holding a knife to you? that may make you unwilling to ever go down an alley, even if its guaranteed safe (mechanicaly, -1 san).
ReplyDeleteThe downside to sanity mechanics is when they force you to do things, rather than encourage. Ie, if I have a fear mechanic and fail horribley, I don't think I should be told I do such and such. I think the GM should do something along the line of stop giving me updates on how things change unless they affect me.
If Im panicing and in fear, don't tell me I run away. Just don't tell me what the badguy is doing unless he's actually hit me, thus giving me choices. Do i lash out blindly/without thinking, do I run away to the route I know? (and trip on a stool if it was moved without me knowing?). Maybe I stand there and hope I regain my wits and gain more updates on the situation?
>>Horror is an attitude, not trappings.
ReplyDeleteI focus on this a bit in Part II, but between work on the next release, formatting Green Devil Face #4, and watching Miss Marple and Johnny Depp movies, I haven't been able to take all the different elements and turn it into a coherent post.
Yeah, got some stuff done today!
I always took the view that horror that can override your characters actions represents a supernatural effect, something so frightening that the mortal mind is profoundly affected by it. I mean, a big orc with an axe, howling and charging me, would make me pee myself and run screaming like a little girl, but I'm just a normal (?) guy; an adventurer is already a cut above for being able to stand his ground against things like that. (Ditto for zombies, basilisks, flumphs, etc.) To me, the sanity-blasting ability of eldritch horror occupies the same conceptual space as a charm person or confusion spell... both of those spells take away control of your character or dictate how you act.
ReplyDeleteI will probably never introduce sanity/horror/fear mechanics into my D&D game, but I can accept their place in games where it is part and parcel to the setting. (WHFRP, CoC, etc.)
I agree 100% with Badelaire, navdi, and Badmike about the way that sanity works in CoC. A PC's sanity score just is his/her 'mental hit points'. I'm surprised by JimLotFP's take on CoC, which seems completely off (IMO).
ReplyDeleteThat said, I do think that something like CoC's SAN is inappropriate for most fantasy RPGs.
I never loved "fright checks" in GURPS or the equivalents in other sets; I have only played a little Coc so I won't jump into that fray. I always thought the more powerful undead (wights/ghosts/wraiths/etc.)were truly scary in D&D because of their abilities. Ghouls can paralyze the whole party and eat them, which is bad, but one touch from a wight and you've lost a level--that is some scary shit. Every D&D game I've played in has had characters falling over each other to get away from level-draining creatures when they appear. (Does 4th edition have energy drain? I don't think that jibes with the 'everyone in the party is the same level' XP system)
ReplyDelete