About yesterday's post...
My concern really isn't about which is the best to play individually or orthodoxy within the ranks (my primary game uses BFRPG, and my secondary uses a mish-mash of OD&D, Holmes, and Chainmail for crying out loud!).
My concern isn't converting 3.x or 4e players. We'll continue to poke at each other even when D&D's on to the eventual 5th and 6th and so on editions.
My concern is for the people that haven't even started yet. The 13 year olds of tomorrow.
Reaching them and communicating to them and appearing as a valid choice once they do enter this strange little world is a problem if we assume they know what the simulacra are and what they represent and that they're really not all that different from each other, let alone answering the important question of why someone should lean our way instead of towards the D&D game currently out that has a larger player and support base.
Nobody trying to publish (and trying to get their publications in front of John Q. Gamer or just maybe becoming that serendipitous spark that sets off the imagination of some 8 or 10 or 12 year old) can feel comfortable with that. Can they?
And for the talk going around that rules don't matter, that it's the attitude that counts... then why aren't we all playing our unbound fantastic games of imagination using Risus, or Donjon, or Wushu, or Over the Edge or any other of the more freeform systems? Or using 4e and simply house-ruling away the mass of rules we don't like in that olde-tyme spirit of customization?
There is something to the 70s and 80s D&D rules, else so much time and effort wouldn't be made to focus on it and clone it and play it two decades after it became old news to the company that published it.
My concern really isn't about which is the best to play individually or orthodoxy within the ranks (my primary game uses BFRPG, and my secondary uses a mish-mash of OD&D, Holmes, and Chainmail for crying out loud!).
My concern isn't converting 3.x or 4e players. We'll continue to poke at each other even when D&D's on to the eventual 5th and 6th and so on editions.
My concern is for the people that haven't even started yet. The 13 year olds of tomorrow.
Reaching them and communicating to them and appearing as a valid choice once they do enter this strange little world is a problem if we assume they know what the simulacra are and what they represent and that they're really not all that different from each other, let alone answering the important question of why someone should lean our way instead of towards the D&D game currently out that has a larger player and support base.
Nobody trying to publish (and trying to get their publications in front of John Q. Gamer or just maybe becoming that serendipitous spark that sets off the imagination of some 8 or 10 or 12 year old) can feel comfortable with that. Can they?
And for the talk going around that rules don't matter, that it's the attitude that counts... then why aren't we all playing our unbound fantastic games of imagination using Risus, or Donjon, or Wushu, or Over the Edge or any other of the more freeform systems? Or using 4e and simply house-ruling away the mass of rules we don't like in that olde-tyme spirit of customization?
There is something to the 70s and 80s D&D rules, else so much time and effort wouldn't be made to focus on it and clone it and play it two decades after it became old news to the company that published it.
"My concern is for the people that haven't even started yet. The 13 year olds of tomorrow."
ReplyDeleteI agree, but how do you reach these kids without a budget? When I was a 13 year-old of tomorrow, the folks in charge of D&D knew how to reach kids like me: D&D ads in comic books, D&D cartoons and action figures, and even D&D candy (with the cool Elmore dragon on the front). To top it off, I could buy D&D at my local ALCO store in the toy section!
What avenues are available to the for-the-love-of-it-all hobbyists and publishers to get the product in front the young and impressionable?
Also...
"There is something to the 70s and 80s D&D rules, else so much time and effort wouldn't be made to focus on it and clone it and play it two decades after it became old news to the company that published it."
Damn right! :)
Nice post James, and I must say I agree with what you are saying.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't gaming "back in the day" and it took me a while to get the difference between OD&D, BD&D, Holmes, Moldvay and whatnot. And to this day I'm not quite sure what the irreconciable differences between AD&D 1st and 2nd are that lead to such bile between adepts of each version.
Trust me, there are quite a number of differences between ADnD 1st and 2nd...but I won't go into those because it really doesn't matter. Your ruleset is going to be different from mine anyways.
ReplyDeleteThe only way that I could see us getting to the 13 years of tomorrow is by going down to our LFGS and running a few games. But don't limit their experience to just one version of the game. Let them trye ODnD, ADnD 1st and 2nd, 3rd or 3.5, and even 4th. The player will know what he likes and will decide what is best for him. But they will remember the fun they had with some of the other editions, which in a way, will keep them alive.
Rules talk is boring. Tell us more about your campaign. You are an interesting blogger but I still haven't decided if you are decent DM.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the talk going around that rules don't matter, that it's the attitude that counts... then why aren't we all playing our unbound fantastic games of imagination using Risus, or Donjon, or Wushu, or Over the Edge or any other of the more freeform systems? Or using 4e and simply house-ruling away the mass of rules we don't like in that olde-tyme spirit of customization?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I don't get! Actually I do get it, but I don't get it at the same time....
The question is why do so many people care about the rules as it is written.
The rules are just a set of tools to run the game that you want to play.
Here's what I get, and I will probably offend many by making this assumption (and I welcome those I offend to prove me wrong: those who are so concerned with rules superiority can't come up with there own rulings. You know those type of gamers, the one who insist on exploiting loop holes, or that a certain rule doesn't make sense so the game is broken and now all they can do is bitch and cry...
What I don't get about it is why some gamers get like that. Why exploit things that make the game unfun? why bitch about "brokedness"? why get in the mindset of rules superiority? I don't get it.
The idea is rulings not rules. It is not an old school idea, it came before and continued well beyond the 80s. Sure some rules sets didn't emphasize it, but I was always of the mind set that it's a game, it's your game and as the DM and player's of the game you do what you want and that means house rules.
What I'd like to see besides bloggers complaining about rules is more people talking about what they do about it. You know, actual play.
Short stories, scene by scene recounting, and prose are okay, but usually boring as hell(unless really well done) if you weren't there. Those type of things have it's place and it's usually to entertain those who participated in the actual play. When I say actual play, I mean house rules used and how it went, random tables, maps, deadly dilemmas, interesting tricks... but I'm wandering off subject now.
So I say end rules superiority. Blog about gaming!
>>What avenues are available to the for-the-love-of-it-all hobbyists and publishers to get the product in front the young and impressionable?
ReplyDeleteIt takes time and patience, unfortunately. Start small (and serving the existing market), work upwards as growing sales and hopefully profits allows more aggressive marketing and greater distribution. Think creatively for marketing and ways to get seen in places that aren't already all about gaming. I would think being available in a place where there's as few books or fantasy-related things as possible would help stand out.
Maybe hope somebody kills themselves or others in the name of your product... or at least have a close family member unable to come to grips with the act blame it on your product. :P
I dunno. I'm probably the last guy to ask for specifics for either public relations or business plan matters, but it seems to me that being an internet phenomenon means never expanding outside of a niche, and following the usual RPG business model sticks us right next to and under WOTC D&D which I find undesireable.
I get insane sometimes and think, "OK. We're always being told that the RPG market is in a state of freefall. Yet the biggest game lines are ones with expensive, fancy books and an endless parade of 'supplements' that we are told are very necessary... because that's what sells and what gamers want."
Hmmm. Maybe "What gamers want" and the current RPG 'model for success' is the thing strangling the RPG industry?
>>Tell us more about your campaign. You are an interesting blogger but I still haven't decided if you are decent DM.
I don't find such things very interesting to read about or write about, actually.
But I generally populate areas and come up with adventure hooks freeform, not paying attention to the rules. I create houserules freely, but rarely in mid-game.
But once play starts and the situation is set, I seek to be a rules literalist. I want to see what happens as much as anyone, so 'deciding' something that the rules already cover is bad to me, because that means I'm influencing instead of witnessing the outcome.
If it's not in notes as an 'unusual' thing, then it's by the book, and I encourage my players to call me on rules flubs I make. Sometimes they're on purpose and I get to smile at them. "Weird, isn't it?"
As I wrote elsewhere earlier tonight:
"I consider it one of my failings as a referee that I often decide how all sorts of unrelated and random NPCs react to the PCs instead of rolling on the reaction chart and discovering it along with them."
It's 4:30am and perhaps this is all a bit unfocused.
>>What avenues are available to the for-the-love-of-it-all hobbyists and publishers to get the product in front the young and impressionable?
ReplyDeleteWant to get the youth playing more rpgs? Then get out there and play more. I've sent jim and a couple others an email before about how to create more gamers and it's simple. Start more clubs, reach out to the community, and use the internet to connect with the gaming community on a global scale. I never got any replies from anyone, I'm thinking because people like complaining more than not.
In short, fuck business plans. Play more. Fuck creating the perfect intro product, in a lot of ways we already have so many. Just play more. Role playing games do not need to be in book stores, we have new mediums to deliver the goods. If you want to spread print products, hell there are many new ways to do so.
Here's one.
http://www.printme1.com/
Cheap print outs of pdfs. For twenty bucks you can get a few copies of Labyrinth lord or swords & wizardry to pass out to others. Why are so many people obsessed with nostalgia? It may not have the same level of quality and may fall apart with play over time, but as long as it gets played who cares.
Does it need that professional look? Hell no.
Does it need that authentic old school look? Hell no. What we need is to just learn the game and teach it to others. Build the gamer community on a local level and connect on the internet on the global.
Simple...
>>Want to get the youth playing more rpgs? Then get out there and play more.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do that as I can, and we should all do that.
But there is more to do.
>> But there is more to do.
ReplyDeleteLike what? Write adventures? Start up zines? Release modules?
I guarantee that the youth is where it's at.
Cultures thrive over generations, and the youth always have the greatest potential for talent and works.
I'm not young, or old but I can see that all the things I've done as a kid, I've found some other kid half my age and twice as talented and full of potential.
The problem today (in america anyway) is the obsession of the self. Me, me, me, me, me.... Everyone's obsessed with glory and power rather than working together for a common goal. One of the greatest strengths of role playing is just that, working towards a common goal, that goal being discovering that hidden story through emergent game play.
But as it always has been and always will be communicating between different generations poses a few problems. The form used and the medium it is being delivered through.
Today, living in a self obsessed american culture all the youth seems to care about is shiny. In many cases this is true, because self obsessed also means shallow. But there are plenty others looking to test the deep end but they can't find it...
I think a solution is to start up more gaming groups and clubs. But the only way for this to work is to connect all these groups and clubs over the internet. Gleemax was an attempt at doing such a thing but they neglected the most important part, connecting people and allowing them to interact digitally.
Right now the two biggest resources I see connecting people are Obsidian Portal and the RPG bloggers network. But like you said 'there is more to do' and it's true.
There needs to be a place on the internet where any table top role playing gamer can go to connect, interact, and socialize with other gamers. Digitally and in real life. It needs to be a resource that encourages starting up gaming groups and clubs. It needs to present resources to play the games you want to play. It needs to be free of special interests, existing solely to promote and culture more gamers. and It needs to be free of charge.
I don't know why, but I tend to ramble a lot when I comment on your site. My bad....
Dude, you just opened that up nicely for me to introduce, mydndgame.com
ReplyDeleteI've been playing there for almost a year now when the site started as Rustmonster.com but it has grown since then.
Though the new site is still under developement, if we could get more funds into it, the site will provide a place for people to play, store their materials, and just generally hang out to talk about DnD. Right now, we only have 3.5 or 4e players and a few Pathfinder guys but with money and players, we can get any game up there. I would love to run OSRIC on there more than the one chat game I have on there at the moment. I would also like to see those other games like Swords and Sorcery, BFRP, and more.
I can't stress it more, please help the site grow and you will see the youth finding the games.
I'd also like to point out that Maptools is another good thing for players to pick up on. it allows you to play over the net with any game like WotC's DDI thing that will never see the day. What's even better, it's free and not 4e. ;)
>>I don't know why, but I tend to ramble a lot when I comment on your site. My bad....
ReplyDeleteI prefer the long responses and more meaty reads in both blogs, message board posts, and responses.
>>Like what? Write adventures? Start up zines? Release modules?
This is what I'd rather do. I don't expect to make a living or even much pocket change, but it would be wonderful to be able to make things look nice as far as materials and art and have it pay for itself, and at the same time imagine that all sorts of different people might get their hands on it.
I do consider myself a creative person, and with a bit of editorial assistance (this is key for 99% of creative types), an excellent writer. But, unbelievable as this may sound, I don't consider myself a great PR guy and I loathe marketing outside of the creative process.
What we need are savvy businessmen who believe in the traditional gaming scene but don't consider themselves creative types, so we can leech off of each others' talents.
I don't have any illusions that oldstyle D&D will take over the gaming world and it'll be 1982 all over again. But I don't believe we have to settle for being a small niche in a declining industry, either. I do believe there is a respectable, sustainable, profitable place for us.
I consider it one of my failings as a referee that I often decide how all sorts of unrelated and random NPCs react to the PCs instead of rolling on the reaction chart and discovering it along with them.
ReplyDeleteSounds dreadful. Random tables are spreading like disease. I wouldn't play in game where the DM/referee used a random table for NPC interaction. It has about the same level of sophistication as found on the astrology page of a newspaper. In interaction, people respond to whats in front of them. If a player knows you will use random tables as a crutch why should he think carefully about his character's behaviour.
Why dont you encourage your players to construct random tables to roleplay by? You could get someone to program up your game and you could watch it like a movie.
I hate to think any younger gamers would be influenced by this abnegation on the part of the DM. Devotees of the random table (Rients et al.) believe if they put 12 banal things in a list they achieve transcendence. No, a monkey and starfish in a table doesnt create a monkey-starfish in some quantum world. The player will just see a monkey when he plays and the game will just seem incoherent over time.
But hey the DM doesn't need to think so that's a plus for him, right?
>>I wouldn't play in game where the DM/referee used a random table for NPC interaction.
ReplyDeletePeople are all different and weird and hardly ever react as you'd expect to situations. Rolling randomly for general reactions of unimportant NPCs (important ones should act consistently with their established personalities and motivations) prevents a game world from getting too predictable (one guy acting off the cuff representing a whole world can lead to that).
>>But hey the DM doesn't need to think
I would imagine there is a good amount of thinking to be done to interpret the results so they make sense in-game. Why is the priest negative and nasty if the PCs are friendly and come bearing gifts? Why is the kobold friendly to the gang of ruthless treasure hunters in the middle of the dungeon?
Plenty of thinking to be done for situations that on the surface seem nonsense.
Fair enough Im not surprised you've given it some thought but I still think people react to what's in front of them, are cagey and don't lurch to an abstract Friend or Foe demeanor without cause.
ReplyDeletePlayer's will feel minor NPCs are reacting haphazardly to them which is different to not knowing how they will react. I suppose it has its drama but I find tables crude and static.
I shouldn't be having a go here, I'll do my own post on random tables.
@ Kent:
ReplyDeleteI think you miss the point about random tables. The idea is to figure out what circumstances brought about the results. This often leads to the discovery of new plots and story lines. This is one of the key tools for emergent game play.
Some random tables can be silly, but most GMs come up with their own, or use some of the time tested tables such as the ones in the 1e DMG.
I don't really see how having a random table is any less arbitrary then running an npc with a pre-determined role.
@kaeosdad
ReplyDeleteThe idea is to figure out what circumstances brought about the results
With tables you have a tiny number of predefined outcomes. If random tables were used once and discarded they would be fine for generating 'circumstances' otherwise they are cliche machines which severely restrict inventiveness of DM. How long before a town is crammed with cranky and avuncular types.
I don't really see how having a random table is any less arbitrary then running an npc with a pre-determined role
A random reaction from an npc suggests disinterest in how the players are conducting themselves. The focus is not on the players but on the dice. It is difficult enough to roleplay in direct speech without one half of the conversation being arbitrary. An npc with character who is influenced by the players' conduct is not behaving arbitrarily.
@Kent:
ReplyDeleteOnce again I think you are missing the point.
A random table used for a random NPC reaction. It's there because the NPC is random! It's not an "arbitrarily" pre-determined personality to serve the DM's whims, it's a springboard for improvisation. You learn along with the player's who this random NPC is.
Maybe we're on a different page here. It sounds like you are talking about a random reaction table for an already developed NPC. In that case then yea, once again rolling upon a table without reason would make things confusing for the players, but it the NPC is already developed with a personality, then why the hell would I roll for a reaction?
R Lawrence Blake:
ReplyDeleteWhat avenues are available to the for-the-love-of-it-all hobbyists and publishers to get the product in front the young and impressionable?
We're on the internet! Kids these days can just google D&D or RPG and get a wealth of material... for free!
As for our hobby becoming an internet based niche market: well, this has already happened to the music industry.. ie. people who are actually interested in music and not marketing and who could actually make money out of producing physical records in the pre-mp3 90s.
Live with it. This is the future. It's not terribly well suited for product oriented consumerism. Those awesome boxed sets (LPs/CDs) that got us into this hobby are likely as not going to work for the next generation.
I'm totally with the get out and play exhortation. And it is analogous with music if you actually like music: go see a band sometime, buy a t-shirt maybe but most of all have fun with what you love with real people away from the computer.
And I say that not to cast a stone in any particular direction but as someone who spends way too much time than I'd like on the net..
>>We're on the internet! Kids these days can just google D&D or RPG and get a wealth of material... for free!
ReplyDelete... and how do they learn about it in the first place?
"Our" stuff is never going to be 'first contact' if we just rely on people stumbling across us on the net. That is a recipe for failure.
Not necessarily. To continue my music analogy, many many record shops have closed down but people still listen to music and go out.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately where my analogy falls down is that new pop music is increasingly shit, whereas running a successful RPG session is nowhere near as involved as producing good music.
I'm not pessimistic about the future of the hobby or music. The old school revial is a sign that there is still some life.
I get the feeling from the blog posts about this topic last week that some people were hoping for another mass cultural movement to happen as it did in the early 80s. I just don't think that's going to happen again in *any* medium. Just take a lot at all the relatively anaemic new styles of music that are coming out (folktronica FFS...) or SF/film sites trying to get excited about "Monsters & Aliens" being available in 3D - big whoop...
In the 80s the movements were the product of deliberate marketing and captive markets. There is still great stuff being produced but traditional marketing is no longer as effective.
>> ... and how do they learn about it in the first place?
ReplyDeleteGood luck with whatever master plan you come up with and convincing everyone that they are fucktards for enjoying anything past 1e.