I've been working up a blog post on the subject, but it seems Jukka's beaten me to it. By FOUR YEARS.
"As a discussion about realism in a fantasy setting grows longer, the
probability of someone claiming the irrelevance of realism in the
presence of magic approaches one."
Here.
I think there has to be a balance between realism and fun. You don't want the characters floating through a gray void and occasionally bumping into monsters. On the other hand, you don't want to be making them get off their horse every few hours to take a piss.
ReplyDeleteIt was kind of funny that the example he used was, "But how do they eat?", when there is a somewhat basic clerical spell (3rd level) that does exactly that. I have a vision of clerics pressed into service, the lunch-ladies of D&D, feeding small villages day in and day out with their magic...
http://malirath.blogspot.com/2012/01/create-food.html
Delete:-)
I got rid of that spell in my game. :D
DeleteTo me this goes somewhat hand-in-hand with the magic level of the campaign. Low magic = more "realism"; high magic = less. Conan needs to eat. Legolas, apparently not.
ReplyDeleteThis conversation also relates to how strongly one embraces the "explorer" aspect of adventuring ... having a pack animal or porter ... a 10' pole ... lighting ... digging tools. Those sorts of players and DMs WANT the "realism" and detail.
Having played both ways, I like more "realism." It's D&D Hardcore mode, which I believe is how it was intended to be played.
'Plausability' is the magic word. To strive for 'realism' is just wrong. Plausability on the other hand, for everything to be comprehensible in context of the scenario, THAT is key.
ReplyDelete"...you don't want to be making them get off their horse every few hours to take a piss."
ReplyDeleteI do! And, not only have I never had any player say their character shouldn't have to do stuff like that, but I've had several players say they like that I include such details in my games because they make the play "seem more real" to them.
For me, it is all about the verisimilitude needed to sustain immersion (belief) in the secondary creation or world of the game. How much is needed will always vary. (As Purehumanstrain says, "balance.") When a conversation hits that, "It's Magic, stupid!" wall (usually pretty early), I know it's time to go make a Guinness float or something.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely that the issue isn't really "realism" at all, but actually plausibility & verisimilitude.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also agree completely that how much is needed varies from player to player.
But I'd like to point that, as the piss-taking example above shows, how much is ideal also differs from how much is needed, and also varies from player to player, too.
I can't even imagine tracking piss schedules for the party. I'm going to have to sit in on one of your games someday, Ed :)
ReplyDelete"I can't even imagine tracking piss schedules for the party."
ReplyDeleteI'll give you a peek behind the curtain...
I don't track piss-schedules, or anything else like that -- not even need for water, food or sleep -- unless it's an issue the characters are actively trying to deal with because of the specific nature of their current adventure, so I have to 'play fair' about it.
All I usually do is occasionally tell players their characters are getting thirsty or hungry or sleepy or whatever whenever it just seems right to me, or whenever I want to use some such situation to do something like heightening the players' senses of their characters' isolation or vulnerability or whatever's appropriate, or whenever I want to get the characters to stop someplace so I can make something happen there.
But I don't tell the players any of that. I just tell them their characters need to pee.
"I'm going to have to sit in on one of your games someday, Ed :)"
If you live anywhere near Lafayette, Indiana, then please do!
B-b-but how else is I am going to counter square/cube law arguments about dragons and giant insects or arguments about characters gaining more hit dice with levels other than yelling: Wizard did it, fuck you!
ReplyDeleteDragons use unconscious telekinetic levitation and pyrokinesis. (If it works for Superboy ...)
DeleteGiant insects have Cavorite exoskeletons that block gravity. They still have inertial mass, though, so body slams can do damage. On the other hand, enough damage to a giant insect's carapace.
PC hit points represent a deflector field that wears down. A thief's backstab tunnels through the field, damaging the field and possibly the PC's body. A slave girl who manages to get a knife to a PC's throat *will* do far more than 1d4 damage.
"B-b-but how else is I am going to counter square/cube law arguments about dragons and giant insects or arguments about characters gaining more hit dice with levels other than yelling: Wizard did it, fuck you!"
ReplyDeleteThere's always transdimensional hyperspacial physics.
Technobabble might work, also if they insist as punitive effort tracking of piss-schedules will start and character will start dropping out of burst bladders.
DeleteFor even more punitive "realism", perhaps whenever anybody takes more than, say, 5 points of damage from a single "hit", they have to save or die.
Delete"You want realism? I'll give you realism!"