The Spell Lists. All the necromantic and nature-control stuff goes to the Magic-User (Speak with Dead, Speak with Animals, etc), and aside from the classic healing spells, the Cleric is anti-magic, anti-chaos. Most of the whiz-bang Magic-User combat spells are gone - Magic Missile remains as a first level spell, yet scales more as the mage rises in level so that it is the go-to combat spell for the wizard's entire career. Basically high-level Magic-Users are still Really Bad News but not "I'll just take over this kingdom and defeat that army all by myself." Twisted explorers of forbidden knowledge, not walking artillery.
Elves are no longer people. They are creatures of chaos! Basically all these means is spell effects treat them as otherworldly creatures and not humanlike. Good for the elf if someone's casting sleep or charm at them, not so good when facing clerics casting Protection from Evil. Also, no aging for elves at all anymore.
Skill system consolidation, meaning Specialists have just a touch more meaningful advancement, really. (Elves, Dwarfs, Halflings also advance in their racial skills as they advance in level - a high level Specialist shouldn't out-Search an Elf just because he has nowhere else to put points anymore...)
Silver standard for treasure and XP. This is going to look like a huge change but it's purely a cosmetic flavor thing designed to make gold cool and makes copper worth acknowledging. Seriously, the idea that a gold piece is a commonplace thing is poopy as hell. Gold should be A Big Deal! This doesn't affect compatibility, since all you need to do is change "gp" to "sp" in gold-standard material and the game rolls on as before.
Elves are no longer people. They are creatures of chaos! Basically all these means is spell effects treat them as otherworldly creatures and not humanlike. Good for the elf if someone's casting sleep or charm at them, not so good when facing clerics casting Protection from Evil. Also, no aging for elves at all anymore.
Skill system consolidation, meaning Specialists have just a touch more meaningful advancement, really. (Elves, Dwarfs, Halflings also advance in their racial skills as they advance in level - a high level Specialist shouldn't out-Search an Elf just because he has nowhere else to put points anymore...)
Silver standard for treasure and XP. This is going to look like a huge change but it's purely a cosmetic flavor thing designed to make gold cool and makes copper worth acknowledging. Seriously, the idea that a gold piece is a commonplace thing is poopy as hell. Gold should be A Big Deal! This doesn't affect compatibility, since all you need to do is change "gp" to "sp" in gold-standard material and the game rolls on as before.
sweet, I'm not the only one who turned elves into aliens.
ReplyDelete'Magic Missile remains as a first level spell, yet scales more as the mage rises in level so that it is the go-to combat spell for the wizard's entire career.':
ReplyDeleteI like this particularly, as MM is the spell that comes to mind when I think of 'Magic-users' in D&D. Quite possibly because of the whole Bargle-Aleena thing back in Mentzer Basic I read during my first run-in(ending in PC creation, sadly enough) with 'Classic' D&D. And of course, years of AD&D videogames! :-) All kidding aside, it's a great idea; the Wizard doesn't just feel like they're just waiting for Fireball/Lightning Bolt to be 'kick-ass'.
'aside from the classic healing spells, the Cleric is anti-magic, anti-chaos.':
That does give a different vibe from your standard-issue HealBot, I'll admit. Cool.
'Elves are no longer people.':
Were they ever? :-) This is my take in my games as well. I feel additionally validated!
'Silver standard for treasure and XP. This is going to look like a huge change but it's purely a cosmetic flavor thing designed to make gold cool and makes copper worth acknowledging. Seriously, the idea that a gold piece is a commonplace thing is poopy as hell. Gold should be A Big Deal! This doesn't affect compatibility, since all you need to do is change "gp" to "sp" in gold-standard material and the game rolls on as before.':
Abso-frikkin'-lutely! Wholeheartely agree. Why do almost all bog-standard fantasy games claim Gold is rare and then utilize it as the tender of everyday transactions by like, every, city dweller and practically all rural, isolated hamlets? As an aside: when's the last time a D&D-descended game DIDN'T use the Gold standard? Dragonlance, with its currency being Steel? Dark Sun and Ceramic?
Now, the wait begins...
Wizard = Twisted explorers of forbidden knowledge, not walking artillery. Nice!
ReplyDeleteSo clerics = Solomon Kane & wizards = Thulsa Doom. I'm trying to think how this could ever be bad...
Elves as monsters? That makes sense, and there's good precedent for it both in folklore and game literature. Isn't one of the old folklore tenets that elves are all in thrall to (capital E) Evil? Not necessary aligned to it, but they owe a symbolic tithe or something. AD&D also used to talk about them not having souls (IIRC raise dead didn't work on Mr Pointy Ears...)
Silver standard FTW! Gold is treasure; not chump change.
I was already working from the "magic = unnatural" and that Magic-Users were Chaotic. Not evil, just drenched in that otherworldly stuff. It makes sense that elves are made of it.
ReplyDelete(Cleric magic is also "unnatural," but a different kind of unnatural that some call "holy")
I'm impressed. You've went from creating a great ruleset for my traditional D&D use to creating a ruleset for my non-D&D fantasy ideas.
ReplyDeleteNice! I like these changes.
ReplyDelete> Magic-User combat spells are gone - Magic Missile remains as a first level spell, yet scales more as the mage rises in level so that it is the go-to combat spell for the wizard's entire career.
ReplyDeleteCool. So Magic Missile is the new Take That You Fiend!
Yes and no. I almost explicitly mentioned T&T as the inspiration, but it's not really T&T inspired...
ReplyDeleteSee, I only ever saw Tunnels & Trolls for the first time in late October. But almost ten years ago, when I was fiddling around with an all-original system (or so I thought), the combat system was essentially (not exactly) the T&T system, but I didn't know it.
I'd never seen T&T, never so much as cracked a book, and the impression I had about T&T combat was, as it turns out, completely inaccurate. I couldn't understand why people said I was ripping off T&T when I talked about my new revolutionary combat system online.
But it's not even identical to the "procedure I thought I'd made up but T&T had done it 25 years earlier," just sort of reminiscent of it - it's still Magic Missile, just done a bit different.
... and I think I've just confused myself. *sits down*
Like the changes, especially the standard coinage being the silver piece, something I was considering for my next campaign. Looking forward to getting this when it is ready :)
ReplyDeleteSplitter!
ReplyDeleteJim, are you going to put the rules changes up as a free, printable pdf for those people who have the first edition? Like an upgrade kit sort of thing. Of course I'm getting the Grindhouse Edition as well, but the people who're sticking with the old box might appreciate having the new rules in an easy-to-add format.
ReplyDeleteYes. The priority, after getting the physical product and commercial PDF versions ready, is to do the free Rules and Magic PDF for the new edition the same way that the Deluxe edition has a free PDF up now.
ReplyDeleteThe spell and equipment lists (which encompass 99% of the changes, certainly all the ones you need to be current) will be right there.
But I will put together a document listing the changes in more detail, but there will be enough to do that I can't promise it's an immediate priority.
Sounds really cool. I like the base changes a lot.
ReplyDeleteThese changes give the game a strong R E Howard-ish feel; I like!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis looks great Jim but I have a question.
ReplyDeleteHow do these changes effect the need for saving throws?
I mean it looks like most of the attack has gone out of cleric and with most of the whiz bang combat spells gone it sounds like there is a whole lot of less need for saving throws.
This in itself isn't a problem but with INT and WIS only effecting the appropriate saving throws (I know INT has some other effect, bonus languages or some such but not exactly on the same scale as bonus to Hit, Hps and AC) are these stats now redundant? I mean there is not much point having 16 WIS with +2 saving throws vs Cleric spells if there are so few spells that use a save that an adventurer might only encounter one or two every few levels. Or have you got some other effect/use for them?
Awesome work sir, I definitely will be ordering as soon as you have hard copy to sell me. Any word on preorders?
ReplyDelete> But it's not even identical to the "procedure I thought I'd made up but T&T had done it 25 years earlier," just sort of reminiscent of it - it's still Magic Missile, just done a bit different.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean it as an accusation, I really thought it was cool. I do love T&T though, and getting the death spell at first level is a nice touch.
I don't know what you have in mind for MM, but TTYF damage scales up as the Wizard's IQ stat increases (through Adventure Points)— probably not a good match for a system with static ability scores. You can also double the damage by each level that you raise the casting cost, which creates a deadly geometric progression; and I could see you doing something similar with MM.
Seperating clerics and magic-users to sort of exactly opposite roles sounds cool. It fits the Moorcock inspired tradition of forces of chaos and law.
ReplyDeleteSilver standard is propably a good decision flavor wise. Almost every D&D campaign I played had suspension of disbelief breaking slightly at some point when players started figuring out how much their accumulated gold really would be.
Another question regarding armor:
ReplyDeleteIn most of the pictures you've shown, no one's wearing armor. Are there rules that allow for this without instant death vs. someone in armor?
A lot of the fighty pictures do have people wearing armor (or both sides not wearing armor), but there aren't any particular rules making it advantageous to not wear armor...
ReplyDeleteBut if adventures require a bit of mobility to succeed more (or at least don't give tremendous advantage to a bunch of walking tin cans), I think that reinforces the "you don't have to wear armor all the time" idea.
...there aren't any particular rules making it advantageous to not wear armor...
ReplyDeleteOf course, if you follow through you on your threat to create a firearms supplement, firearms may make armor useless (and explain why some of your post-renaissance art pieces have armorless characters). Just saying.
That's still in the plans, but it wouldn't make armor completely useless - armor (of the types depicted in the Grindhouse Edition art) was still worn by soldiers.
ReplyDeleteBut we'll get to that in due time.
And with the revised spell lists and elves as creatures of Chaos I have more reason to make LotFPWF the base system for the World After.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you know this Jim, but Dave Arneson's orginal Clerics back in the day utilized a "divine" magic that was supposed to be quite different than MU magic. Cleric magic was always more powerful than MU magic at equal levels.
ReplyDelete