tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post7546905847844497988..comments2024-02-16T22:05:32.773+02:00Comments on LotFP: RPG: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the GrindhouseJimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-6692189390074471312011-06-23T23:47:09.470+03:002011-06-23T23:47:09.470+03:00Thanks Ed. ;-)
The current 'controversy' ...Thanks Ed. ;-)<br /><br />The current 'controversy' regarding all this has triggered many issues for lots of people.<br /><br />For me, as a horror fan (and a Metal fan as well) I find it disheartening that people who *don't* like such material to label those who do and those who produce such content as 'immature' 'sick' or any other sort of armchair psychoanalytical derogatory term.<br /><br />It reminds me of the people who think Stephen King was deranged for writing his books or, dare I say, the people who thought that D&D players were satanists.<br /><br />It's truly fascinating to see how much LotFP has threatened people enough to get so hot and bothered about what, when compared to what's come out of the Horror RPG industry for the past 15 years, is really not that extreme in any sense of the word.Osskorreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408780872015323307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-5109136355302646162011-06-23T22:51:50.731+03:002011-06-23T22:51:50.731+03:00@Osskorrei -- YEAH!!!
(In other words, I wish I w...<b>@Osskorrei</b> -- YEAH!!!<br /><br /><i>(In other words, I wish I was as well-read and eloquent as you are.)</i>https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-30856736414801584152011-06-23T19:41:48.600+03:002011-06-23T19:41:48.600+03:00When James states "I think the "it's...When James states "I think the "it's more effective to not show everything and leave it up to the imagination of the reader/viewer" idea is bullshit as a blanket statement. It's truthy but not true. It's a valid stylistic choice but it's touted as some sort of universal truth."<br /><br />it shouldn't be confused with how people react to his personal expression of that statement (i.e., whether or not you like James' influences or artistic choices is completely beside the point of what he's arguing). Wally, above, spends more time attacking James' personal attitudes than the veracity of the statement itself.<br /><br />Many horror stories and weird tales (for an explication of the differences of both - as well as additonal explaination of what makes LotFP 'weird' I recommend S.T. Joshi's "The Weird Tale" and "The Evolution of the Weird Tale") benefit from the 'less is more' approach while others do not.<br /><br />"Hellraiser" was extremely effective because of what it did show. The intensely graphic nature of its content provided a visceral nexus for the audience to explore the blurring boundaries between 'Heaven' and 'Hell; 'pain' and 'pleasure' - and arguably 'love' and 'hate'.<br /><br />"Psycho" was extremely effective because of how Hitchcock employed 'closure' and not showing the details of the shower scene.<br /><br />Cliver Barker, Laird Barron, Edward Lee, Richard Laymon, Skipp and Spector, and even Poppy Z Brite are effective because of what they are willing to show and what boundaries they were willing to cross. And how they were changing the nature of Horror from being supporters of the status quo to transgressors.<br /><br />HPL, MR James, Thomas Ligotti, Ramsey Campbell, and Peter Straub are examples of authors that suggest more than they show and are very effective in their understated qualities.<br /><br />What I believe James is arguing is that blanket statements (or most generalizations) are flawed - especially when coming from a place of personal discomfort or fear or ignorance born of fear.<br /><br />Disgusting may not equate with transgression but can be a valid tool to use when an artist is seeking to explore transgression in their art - if it fits well with their personal voice and style.<br /><br />Whether or not anyone feels James (or his influences) effectively use those tools towards that goal is a completely separate argument.<br /><br />The fact that he's pushed enough buttons to get these kinds of responses (as opposed to boring them into indifference and to reading other blogs) indicates that he's doing a better job than people may give him credit for.Osskorreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408780872015323307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-21646264209666430452011-06-21T10:33:34.500+03:002011-06-21T10:33:34.500+03:00There's so much to argue with, and yet it'...There's so much to argue with, and yet it's completely pointless because it <i>is</i> simply a matter of taste. We simply disagree.<br /><br />What I think we do need is a better venue than blog comments to do some head-to-head cinematic and literary review (I'm wanting to go on a lengthy rant about Colour Out of Space, haha!). No joking here - I think that'd be fascinating. Although I have a feeling we couldn't get past choosing which things to talk about. :DJimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-26671576719796882502011-06-21T08:09:26.102+03:002011-06-21T08:09:26.102+03:00Wally: Bravo! Well stated.Wally: Bravo! Well stated.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-35040450466284941422011-06-21T00:17:04.535+03:002011-06-21T00:17:04.535+03:00Shorter version of previous post: Equating 'di...Shorter version of previous post: Equating 'disgusting' and 'transgressive' is puerile; asking whether shock-horror is actually 'more unnerving' than horrific suggestion is some K-12 bullshit.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-78378670179132578782011-06-21T00:12:33.592+03:002011-06-21T00:12:33.592+03:00I think the "it's more effective to not s...<em>I think the "it's more effective to not show everything and leave it up to the imagination of the reader/viewer" idea is bullshit as a blanket statement. It's truthy but not true. It's a valid stylistic choice but it's touted as some sort of universal truth.</em><br /><br />The reason it's almost always more effective <em>not</em> to depict the 'horror' directly is that the viewer/reader will then provide a fantasy image <em>specifically tailored to his own anxieties</em>. You get off on stupid 'transgressive' violence, bully for you, so you fill your adventures with that stuff (or what you're just anxious to show off, e.g. your 'fucking with the norms' cred). But the Colour is precisely the opposite: it's <em>anxiety</em>, and so the fate of the family in the barn isn't What Lovecraft Imagined...it's Whatever I Fear.<br /><br />Understanding that potency requires nothing more than empathetic connection.<br /><br />It seems you're as literal-minded as every other geek around here. Your writing often treats disgust (unreflective visceral response) as if it were as important, as meaningful, as more complex/deeper imaginative engagements; you buy the 'just like the old stuff but NASTIER' model of horror/thrills; you refer to the mere visual content of a shock-horror film moment as 'sublime' (perhaps not realizing that the word 'sublime' has an actual <em>meaning</em>); you even elliptically congratulate yourself in this post for seeing exactly 'what's being talked about' in a written story, as if that were some sign of great depth on your part.<br /><br />And I'm guessing this literal-mindedness is why you can say shit like 'sometimes more is more' as if you weren't repeating trivia. The difference between lingering anxiety and direct sensation is actually important to human beings. You talk as if the one were the same as the other, as if the idea of latent content hadn't yet trickled down to your corner of Finland.<br /><br />There's a reason so many readers here (including me) love the image of the Flame Princess as a little girl lifting up the sword to defend/avenge her family. It's an evocative image, universal. But you play it as if that doesn't matter - ignoring, denying, or simply missing your own reliance on precisely that universality in the art you value. Or make. (Or commission.)<br /><br />You beat your breast about not caring what other people think of your stuff (except insofar as it affects sales, presumably) because you're only trying to please <em>yourself</em>. It always comes off as defensive posturing. But it shouldn't surprise anyone. You're not the first person to declare the incomprehensible <em>irrelevant.</em>Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-8016657752977215062011-06-17T07:44:12.431+03:002011-06-17T07:44:12.431+03:00Just dropped in to add my support to your efforts ...Just dropped in to add my support to your efforts and to say do not ever let anyone distract you from those efforts now or in the future.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814063435676111475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-52102111369459321422011-06-17T05:46:00.787+03:002011-06-17T05:46:00.787+03:00Honestly, anybody complaining about the artwork in...Honestly, anybody complaining about the artwork in this book needs to pop their head out of a cave and take a look at the world for a few minutes. This isn't the 1980's. Honestly, how the hell can anybody complain about the art in the book being "too violent". I say screw it. I want to buy the Grindhouse Edition Artbook which is literally a B4 Size version of this RPG but without any of the text. I'll put that art book on my coffee table. Please make this happen.Greg(ory) Senpaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01137328793556744138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-16797604431316166202011-06-17T03:22:50.312+03:002011-06-17T03:22:50.312+03:00Huh... I wasn't counting the zapped cleric or...Huh... I wasn't counting the zapped cleric or the melting Flame Princess as deaths, since characters in my games get over that stuff all the time. ;ptrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-29741143913763019582011-06-17T01:17:55.468+03:002011-06-17T01:17:55.468+03:00Fascinating! And utterly beside the point!Fascinating! And utterly beside the point!bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03895443221200994288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-11148260216538534512011-06-17T00:31:29.477+03:002011-06-17T00:31:29.477+03:00Brady wrote,
"Heavy metal music and horror mo...Brady wrote,<br /><i>"Heavy metal music and horror movies are TRANSGRESSIVE BY DESIGN. Why on earth would a game informed by them be anything else?"</i><br /><br />But what do they transgress against? Who is being offended? A few bloggers? Not to discredit the heroic effort being put into blog posts, but the norms aren't exactly being freaked, or even listening. Transgression now is a thing in a box; purchased in online stores with Rebel brand credit cards on PayPal; a commodified form of safely integrated niche entertainment that has found its audience but does not reach beyond it; it does not upset the order of things because it is part of this order; bottled rebellion and discounted weekly deals supported by SME grants; patted on the head by a culture that accepts and encourages transgression to reinforce its own self-image of tolerance and diversity; it does not challenge, it does not change, it does not threaten, it does not even register in a compartmental society. It is, by itself and without other virtues, empty, it is nothing, it is lazy and self-congratulating, a self-delusion.<br /><br />If you wish to transgress in a modern post-1968 Western European society, your only means to do it are pedophilia advocacy, radical Islam, or a Mussolini T-shirt. Not roleplaying games with vaguely risque art.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-34571421208325098332011-06-16T22:31:22.860+03:002011-06-16T22:31:22.860+03:00If you take that seriously, I suggest suicide.
Go...<i>If you take that seriously, I suggest suicide.</i><br /><br />Good-bye cruel world! Pat Pulling was right! James Raggi IV, Death Metal and LotFP drove me to it!Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47757182933358708302011-06-16T22:24:41.589+03:002011-06-16T22:24:41.589+03:00I read scholarly essays on horror cinema, and the ...I read scholarly essays on horror cinema, and the term for the "don't show it" type of horror in egghead circles is "restrained" horror. An article I read about RINGU a couple years back described the film (and certain other J-Horror pics) as "restrained" horror, whereas American horror films of the same period tended toward the more "shock and surprise" modality, where explicitly gory stuff happens and stuff pops out at the viewer really fast.<br /><br />If anyone cares, here's the citation for that article:<br /><br />Martin, Daniel. "Japan’s Blair Witch: Restraint, Maturity, and Generic Canons in the British Critical Reception of Ring." Cinema Journal - Vol. 48, Number 3, Spring 2009, pp. 35-51Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-68105245661441655502011-06-16T21:09:00.959+03:002011-06-16T21:09:00.959+03:00Yeah, I certainly think part of the reason Lovecra...Yeah, I certainly think part of the reason Lovecraft doesn't scare or unnerve me is because he was so influential that his sort of strange isn't so strange to me.<br /><br />But I also think his habit of circumlocution plays a part in the fact that I like his stuff.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-61986258529251516232011-06-16T19:54:01.882+03:002011-06-16T19:54:01.882+03:00Recollections aside; don't sell yourself short...Recollections aside; don't sell yourself short on the "completely insane" front - thats how we like you.ravenconspiracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213200607228975388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-66591833465745829002011-06-16T19:36:56.308+03:002011-06-16T19:36:56.308+03:00(post updated - I wasn't completely insane mak...(post updated - I wasn't completely insane making stuff up, I had just confused a conversation I had with Amos with sketches actually received)JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-56285379913019537132011-06-16T19:35:58.450+03:002011-06-16T19:35:58.450+03:00Yes, I did want a weird assignment and you gave it...Yes, I did want a weird assignment and you gave it to me in spades with that ritual pic.ravenconspiracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213200607228975388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-34585010097247795802011-06-16T19:34:27.511+03:002011-06-16T19:34:27.511+03:00Cannibal Corpse headlined the first club show I ev...Cannibal Corpse headlined the first club show I ever went to (with Unleashed and Epidemic, tickets $5!).<br /><br />When I was brand new to the whole death metal thing and didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, they made a big impression.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-81443661835664966812011-06-16T19:23:38.189+03:002011-06-16T19:23:38.189+03:00I'd be angry about the Cannibal Corpse compari...I'd be angry about the Cannibal Corpse comparisons, not because they were "ooh, too scary!", but because they were crappy, bottom-of-the-barrel brutal death metal.The Iron Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15839364742884404019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-56618242239770824962011-06-16T19:22:55.712+03:002011-06-16T19:22:55.712+03:00Amos - hmmm, I'll change that in the article t...Amos - hmmm, I'll change that in the article then, maybe I was confusing something else, but whichever happened on your end, I know for my part I gave that one to you to give you something a bit weirder to play around with.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-81216022776319329092011-06-16T19:18:38.444+03:002011-06-16T19:18:38.444+03:00"I think the "it's more effective to..."I think the "it's more effective to not show everything and leave it up to the imagination of the reader/viewer" idea is bullshit as a blanket statement. It's truthy but not true. "<br /><br />I think the opposite of this is true. Once you've illustrated something, you've defined it. Defining something limits it, you've essentially killed it by saying,"this is what happened". <br />Once a thing is described, it is static, there is no longer room for imagination to consider the possibilities.<br />It's this undefinable quality that ensures that an image can never be as vivid as writing in invoking emotion. <br />Most especially in regards to horror. I've had to deal with some awful things, but once you say, "Well, there it is." You've got to roll up your sleeves and just take care of it. <br />That's why the "Stolid farmer" in the Lovecraft example is able to deal with the horror. <br />The situation wasn't undefined and thus something that couldn't be faced or dealt with.E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-31669708291251295582011-06-16T19:14:27.429+03:002011-06-16T19:14:27.429+03:00"Amos was turning in sketches for a lot of th..."Amos was turning in sketches for a lot of the layout filling pics with boobs and such things, and it was a bit too much"<br /><br />This never happened. I went through all of my sketches to make sure I recalled what I actually drew. (The ONE insert sketch with "boobs" I did was a sorceress nipping out through a skimpy robe)<br /><br />I was happy and greatful to work on the project, and I think any discussion about needing censorship or "this shouldn't exist" is rediculous --- but there is no need to make up stories about me, Jim.ravenconspiracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213200607228975388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-44198813749068472462011-06-16T19:03:26.075+03:002011-06-16T19:03:26.075+03:00Visuals matter. Isn't the big issue with Del ...Visuals matter. Isn't the big issue with Del Toro's version of "At the Mountains of Madness" getting approved is the R rating - because the horrific tent autopsy scene needs to be shown?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-74927234579891772622011-06-16T18:45:37.459+03:002011-06-16T18:45:37.459+03:00Challenging and upsetting common sensibilities is ...<i>Challenging and upsetting common sensibilities is kind of metal's raison d'être, you know?</i><br /><br />This, a thousand times.<br /><br />Heavy metal music and horror movies are TRANSGRESSIVE BY DESIGN. Why on earth would a game informed by them be anything else?<br /><br />So much of the moralizing about this game seems to be, "Shocking things are shocking!"bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03895443221200994288noreply@blogger.com