tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post8696262578312265560..comments2024-02-16T22:05:32.773+02:00Comments on LotFP: RPG: Why Does Malcolm Sheppard Suck?JimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-30930121889919057042011-02-09T04:22:40.976+02:002011-02-09T04:22:40.976+02:00trollsmyth: “Action/adventure RPGs may be a heavil...trollsmyth: “Action/adventure<i> RPGs may be a heavily explored terrain, but there's a lot of stuff outside that we've barely begun to poke at: romance, politics, cultural exploration, educational, heck, even horror really hasn't gotten all the attention it deserves.</i>”<br /><br />Hmm. Perhaps.<br /><br />I already see three or four spin-offs from RPGs that I think really should start calling themselves something else because they are different enough. Or perhaps adventure RPG fans like myself should reädopt the “adventure” moniker to distinguish ourselves? Maybe I simply take too narrow a view of what an “RPG” is because I think going much farther than has been gone in some of those areas leads to something I’d call a different hobby.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-78083047581290186562011-02-08T23:37:18.942+02:002011-02-08T23:37:18.942+02:00This makes me want to publish some things and then...This makes me want to publish some things and then give them away for free just out of spite...Keith Sloanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319879076978887933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-42196614492949399212011-02-07T20:13:33.999+02:002011-02-07T20:13:33.999+02:00Mr. Fisher: There’s lots of room for creativity wi...<b>Mr. Fisher:</b> <i>There’s lots of room for creativity within the terrain that has already been discovered.</i><br /><br />I'll absolutely agree with that statement. One of the reasons I'm happy with my purchase of the LotFPWFRP (whew!) box is that there's a lot of neat little innovations in it that are useful for my games, in spite of my already owning LL, B/X, etc.<br /><br />That said, I have to disagree with the idea that "RPGs are a heavily explored terrain these days." <i>Action/adventure</i> RPGs may be a heavily explored terrain, but there's a lot of stuff outside that we've barely begun to poke at: romance, politics, cultural exploration, educational, heck, even horror really hasn't gotten all the attention it deserves. <br /><br />I suspect that, as our hobby becomes more and more niche, that we'll see some folks branching out into these areas. That, or the work will come from the free-formers attempting to solve the issues their particular style is plagued by.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-75757399473902330662011-02-07T17:18:48.753+02:002011-02-07T17:18:48.753+02:00JimLotFP: “Obviously the costs and hassles of lice...JimLotFP: “<i>Obviously the costs and hassles of licenses aren't the dread killer of RPGs that some assume - just look at Long's resume, Margaret Weiss Productions entire business plan, Dresden Files, Star Wars in its various guises, etc. It's possible to work with them and be successful.</i>”<br /><br />Of course, it is <i>possible</i>. Based on my experience (though admittedly in a different arena), it is hard to be successful with a license, and in most cases you’d have been better off without the license. It all depends upon how you measure success, though. (By my measures of success, I don’t think licensed RPGs have done significantly better than non-licensed RPGs.) Not to mention the specifics of the individual situation.<br /><br />Trollsmyth: “<i>He's also right that there's lots of room for innovation.</i>”<br /><br />I don’t know that I agree with this. RPGs are a heavily explored terrain these days. (Especially if you actually dig through the history looking for prior art before claiming an innovation.) I’m sure there are new discoveries to be made, but they’re increasingly fewer and harder to find.<br /><br />I also tend to think innovation is overrated. There’s lots of room for creativity within the terrain that has already been discovered.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-54917269983688290382011-02-07T13:15:11.226+02:002011-02-07T13:15:11.226+02:00Licensing:
Margaret Weiss productions doesn't ...Licensing:<br />Margaret Weiss productions doesn't seem to release anything BUT licensed games anymore! Seems to work for them, though the games only stick around for a short while before they go.(I'd guess not everyone could make a niche like this work though... The profits wouldn't be terribly large from what I've seen[unless you get a hot property for a steal, or there's a 'fad', maybe?], but enough's enough to keep going, I'd say.)) If you wanna play Star Trek, Star Wars, Diablo, Dr. Who, Aliens, Conan, Robotech, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Indiana Jones, or the Lawnmower Man, Leverage, Supernatural, Buffy... Go For It! Me, I'll be playing White Wolf's Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game! :-D In general, I think the games based off of other media can be pretty weak, but some people get jacked up about it; whether to explore new facets of the setting, or interact with 'old friends', there's obviously a desire for them. My only worries would be the fees and possible creative straitjacketing, like say running everything by a company like Lucasarts for approval, lest you 'offend' them or their core audience.(Hazards I'm sure JimLotFP is aware of.)<br /><br />'3e gave the entire industry a much-needed shot in the arm':<br />If by that, you mean the OGL, and meant as a 'cure', I'd just say it can, and has, been argued that that was the 'cure' that almost killed the patient! The OGL had beneficial repercussions for this group of gamers, though. My local stores still have a lot of D20 stuff they're trying to dump, and the owners are leery of 'too much roleplaying stuff' now... I personally never cared for one universal game system, and thought it was a bad idea when GURPS was becoming visible, and later with TSR's Amazing Engine(One of the reasons TSR went down the drain, unfortunately), etc... But that's just me. The 'Boom' was all too short for most, but there were some survivors at least. But alternate history can only be surmised, not predicted, so....<br /><br />@JimLotFP:<br />Keep up the good work, and relax a little! :-)velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-49797030954363527762011-02-07T10:58:45.150+02:002011-02-07T10:58:45.150+02:00I read this article as an attack on the OSR (to th...I read this article as an attack on the OSR (to the extent that I could understand it - I agree with Odyssey that most of what Sheppard says is jargon-riddled buzzword-bingo).<br /><br />Also there seemed to be a bit of a desperate plea that designers aren't using this whole "new media" bizzo to do their stuff, presumably because Sheppard himself has struck out into that desert and is surprised to find it's a barren and featureless wilderness.<br /><br />When I read Sheppard's stuff I think "failed game designer with a chip on his shoulder about his consumers' preferences."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-85402397326282117192011-02-07T02:49:58.028+02:002011-02-07T02:49:58.028+02:00@eyebeams: (in reference to "you never posted...@eyebeams: (in reference to "you never posted rants to your Livejournal or on The Forge about how people who are publishing small-printrun games are practicing bad business, and that, by using options like Lulu to publish their own work, they are devaluing the work of freelancers attempting to sell to WotC or White Wolf?")<br /><br />OK, if you disagree, let me suggest that I am misremembering certain things: (1) maybe it was on Story Games instead of Livejournal; (2) maybe you didn't mention Lulu; (3) Maybe only GM Skarka or Bruce Baugh was involved, and said some of the other things. However, the core idea, that people who self-publish small print-run games practice bad business and undermine professional practices, could be rephrased this way:<br /><br />"<a href="http://story-games.com/forums/?CommentID=107655" rel="nofollow">A game designed with no particular expectation of compensation (or an expectation that is excessively low) depresses the standard of practice for the sake of slaking an ego and burdens retail and distribution with indexing or choosing between too many products.</a>"<br /><br />Not word-for-word the way I characterized your position, I'll grant, but you go on to slag pretty hard on people publishing at the hobby-end of the business:<br /><br />"This affects the value people place on creative work, promoting relationships and payment levels I consider to be exploitation. People want to keep costs down to such a degree that the community expects creative workers to screw themselves over."<br /><br />I do agree with the point you make there about the withering of the free RPG segment... although that trend is starting to reverse now.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-91396921320943680342011-02-07T00:28:24.378+02:002011-02-07T00:28:24.378+02:00Oddysey: There's some cognitive dissonance hap...<b>Oddysey:</b> There's some cognitive dissonance happening here because he's got two thesi, and they're not entirely compatible: <br /><br />1: the industry is dying, and somebody needs to do something amazing and creative to save it and...<br /><br />2: that something amazing and creative needs to look exactly like his personal ideal of RPing.<br /><br />Unfortunately, while his preferences overlap some with mine, last time we went down that road, it lead to the doldrums of the '90s, when Steve Jackson had to get a day job and TSR got bought. The RPG Pundit is right: 3e gave the entire industry a much-needed shot in the arm.<br /><br />When you get down it it, he's blaming the customer. Once you go there, your business can't be saved. If you're at war with your customers, you need to get out, and get into an entirely different business. <br /><br />Yes, he's right: the legacy industry is dying (though that doesn't seem to be stopping new folks from getting into the game and doing well). He's also right that there's lots of room for innovation. That's nearly always true. Beyond that, it's mostly sour grapes and flame bait.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-82144183767733051352011-02-06T22:46:26.246+02:002011-02-06T22:46:26.246+02:00No, I'm with you there, Oddysey. I can't...No, I'm with you there, Oddysey. I can't really work out what he's trying to say, other than that role-players are bad for some reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-16815072225488736912011-02-06T22:41:20.850+02:002011-02-06T22:41:20.850+02:00Does anyone else consistently have problems unders...Does anyone else consistently have problems understanding what Sheppard has said? It feels like there's meaning there but somehow I always fail to process it. I'm not sure what the thesis of his latest piece is; I'm not even sure what a lot of the individual sentences mean.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528192783751011497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-6465237734286280992011-02-06T17:55:25.802+02:002011-02-06T17:55:25.802+02:00Look, I would probably tend to agree that the main...Look, I would probably tend to agree that the mainstream hobby is rife with crap, but the authors in question could better serve their arguments by couching them in a positive way, rather than come off as angry, pompous uber-nerds. By the way, eyebeams: you are a baby. Oh, you used the f- word. Tough guy. You're a caricature, a joke, and you and your ilk are the reason outsiders to the hobby see all gamers as pathetic. You're the comic book guy from the simpsons cartoon.Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-85916967975661178542011-02-06T09:40:44.723+02:002011-02-06T09:40:44.723+02:00"Remember, it is not the publisher's job ..."Remember, it is not the publisher's job to be the creative one. It's the publisher's job to excite the imagination of the potential GM and inspire the creativity there."<br /><br />This might be one of the most insightful things I've read on your blog. It is absolutely true in older edition games, but I fear the idea is currently being destroyed by over-design and fluff. <br /><br />"The tabletop RPG hobby is suffering from creative failure." This quote of his is wonderfully insulting and untrue, the twin hallmarks of pretension.<br /><br />While Mr. Sheppards punditry is pretty laughable, he does seem fairly successful at getting people who are way more interesting than him to send traffic to his blog.John Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940190831705865182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-1279365698014725012011-02-06T07:47:27.332+02:002011-02-06T07:47:27.332+02:00The top games are now either D&D variants or m...<i>The top games are now either D&D variants or media licenses. That can’t be seen as anything other than a collective fuckup.</i><br /><br />Or else, the success of the market, and of consumers buying what they most want, even if it isn't what you personally like. Since he assumes the above then goes off from there, I'm not impressed by anything else in the post.<br /><br />The old article, re Nice Things, I think was correct though, at least for some number of gamers. I've known people like that. Guys who show up with a print-out of the rules, can tell you everything publisher X is doing wrong, and bitch about how the local gaming store focuses on Warhammer and Magic and doesn't do enough to promote roleplaying. Well, maybe buy a damn book before telling the store owner and publisher how to run their businesses for your unique benefit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-54041944624691779112011-02-06T06:03:03.663+02:002011-02-06T06:03:03.663+02:00Oh, come on. You're claiming you never posted ...<i>Oh, come on. You're claiming you never posted rants to your Livejournal or on The Forge about how people who are publishing small-printrun games are practicing bad business, and that, by using options like Lulu to publish their own work, they are devaluing the work of freelancers attempting to sell to WotC or White Wolf?</i><br /><br />Yes. I am claiming exactly that. Also, your whole phrasing of what freelancers do is wrong, unless you're talking about a process like Palladium's.Malcolm Sheppardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543442398574145262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-60569524142226558122011-02-06T05:20:04.600+02:002011-02-06T05:20:04.600+02:00@eyebeams: Oh, come on. You're claiming you n...@eyebeams: Oh, come on. You're claiming you never posted rants to your Livejournal or on The Forge about how people who are publishing small-printrun games are practicing bad business, and that, by using options like Lulu to publish their own work, they are devaluing the work of freelancers attempting to sell to WotC or White Wolf?Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-76184263300303923282011-02-06T05:11:07.568+02:002011-02-06T05:11:07.568+02:00On the other hand, the "client" he's...<i>On the other hand, the "client" he's describing could easily be the guy at Escapist who tried to put me and James Mal and other tabletop games on the site and eventually had to give it up because the tabletop people were so uber-cynical about ANY body attempting to say they knew ANYthing about games who didn't play with the same colored box as them.</i><br /><br />More like this, yes.<br /><br />Some of you come from a basically fucked up mode of thinking. You believe that because I'm not on your team, I must be on somebody else's team.<br />I'm not on anybody's team. I don't ask for your permission. I'm not trying to create any sort of community. I'm not on the side of some conception of the games industry, whatever it is.<br /><br />I do whatever the fuck I want. Don't like it? Don't read. Want to respond? I'm easy to contact. It's simple.Malcolm Sheppardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543442398574145262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-48918786571684788942011-02-06T05:04:42.549+02:002011-02-06T05:04:42.549+02:00What an eloquent rebuttal, eyebeams.What an eloquent rebuttal, eyebeams.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-19208752399513343122011-02-06T04:57:14.774+02:002011-02-06T04:57:14.774+02:00Sheppard's come out against all independent or...<i>Sheppard's come out against all independent or self-published designers, on the grounds that they are undermining professional freelancers who work for the big companies.</i><br /><br />Nope.Malcolm Sheppardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07543442398574145262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-29889530154615939462011-02-06T02:28:14.666+02:002011-02-06T02:28:14.666+02:00@JB: "Actually, after reading the Shepard pie...@JB: <i>"Actually, after reading the Shepard piece, I find myself agreeing with a lot of it...to me, it feels a lot less directed at the OSR movement as with the public RPG industry. For example, the kind of product YOU are putting out James (the weird-scary dungeon-crawl) would fit into Shepard's request for bold and creative design that doesn't give a shit about what the proles are asking for."</i><br /><br />Sheppard's come out against all independent or self-published designers, on the grounds that they are undermining professional freelancers who work for the big companies. Sheppard has groused about Ron Edwards and Vincent Baker more than RPG Pundit has.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-13806981087215934242011-02-05T23:34:35.718+02:002011-02-05T23:34:35.718+02:00On the one hand, in the "Why We Can't Hav...On the one hand, in the "Why We Can't Have Nice Things" article, Sheppard simply seems to be complaining: "Oh no, gamers are smart, independent thinkers who don't buy whatever the fuck we put on the shelf for no reason. Stop doing that, so they'll start making things for us."<br /><br />On the other hand, the "client" he's describing could easily be the guy at Escapist who tried to put me and James Mal and other tabletop games on the site and eventually had to give it up because the tabletop people were so uber-cynical about ANY body attempting to say they knew ANYthing about games who didn't play with the same colored box as them.<br /><br />Two sides of the same coin.<br /><br />Point is: this is a DIY hobbyist industry, it will always be one. Love that or leave it.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-72608820753271126422011-02-05T22:00:15.737+02:002011-02-05T22:00:15.737+02:00The gauntlet is thrown down. I dare anyone to prod...<i>The gauntlet is thrown down. I dare anyone to produce better gaming art in 2011. </i><br /><br />I'll interpret that to be an invitation to pimp the cover art for my upcoming supplement:<br />http://fireinthejungle.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/the-lonely-gorilla/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-78645682513786590282011-02-05T21:31:15.661+02:002011-02-05T21:31:15.661+02:00Ostensible Cat has a candidate for most awesome OS...Ostensible Cat has a candidate for most awesome OSR art:<br /><br />http://xyanthon.blogspot.com/2011/02/its-family-tradition-part-2-or.html<br /><br />You should commission his kid.Spawn of Endrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10431848914619887998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-44296091168117041222011-02-05T21:30:11.913+02:002011-02-05T21:30:11.913+02:00Wow, okay...I now read the Long article and I agre...Wow, okay...I now read the Long article and I agree with that, too! That is, I think Long has a valid point when he calls licensing a creative "honey trap," one I've wrestled with myself when trying to design (serial numbers filed off) "licensed RPGs." Yes, you can work out the details to mimic everything in the book/movie...but what if you used your creativity to create your own damn IP (as, again, I think YOU do, James)...there's so much more potential to "blow the top off" in those cases and create really cool games with game-specific designs that do cool things.<br /><br />RE: Shepard's piece:The first half of the post is less than complimentary to current designers, and may miss the mark on the amount of effort and creativity poured into today's games, but I still feel like this is a post aimed at insipid game design. And I still think the second-half of the post has some useful thoughts for designers to consider.<br /><br />His earlier "nice things" rant had a lot of garbage in it.<br /><br />word verification: humbl<br />Humbly submitted.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-18366352842854251762011-02-05T21:10:20.843+02:002011-02-05T21:10:20.843+02:00Actually, after reading the Shepard piece, I find ...Actually, after reading the Shepard piece, I find myself agreeing with a lot of it...to me, it feels a lot less directed at the OSR movement as with the public RPG industry. For example, the kind of product YOU are putting out James (the weird-scary dungeon-crawl) would fit into Shepard's request for bold and creative design that doesn't give a shit about what the proles are asking for.<br /><br />I don't normally read the guy's blog, so I admit I'm taking it out of context, but to me it sound more like a call to arms than a disparaging of the hobby (only a disparaging of the present state of the hobby). I'll go back and read it again though (with the links and comments this time).JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-13361910189192424572011-02-05T20:15:55.775+02:002011-02-05T20:15:55.775+02:00This is my translation of the aforementioned rant,...This is my translation of the aforementioned rant, "I'm not making enough money be because rpg consumers are buying the wrong things...waaahhh"Blairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884401206802336531noreply@blogger.com