tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post7626238707190220290..comments2024-02-16T22:05:32.773+02:00Comments on LotFP: RPG: Edition WarsJimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-85792980969523746622009-03-01T14:37:00.000+02:002009-03-01T14:37:00.000+02:00Well "4E" is so different even from "3E" that I fi...Well "4E" is so different even from "3E" that I find people reflecting on the difference. <BR/><BR/>As one might expect of something seemingly designed to please people who <I>don't like D&D</I> (as you and I understand the term), something that turns so much upside down and backwards ... that does indeed characterize part of the demographic playing it.<BR/><BR/>Some others seem to be working hard to convince themselves that the new games really have "fixed problems." Yet their measure of a good game, what they invoke when offering a DM a compliment, is wistfully recalled from the days when D&D was not all about dry rules and mystery and suspense abounded.<BR/><BR/>Some spread a myth that AD&D is so complicated as to be "unplayable." An elementary-schooler, though, figured at a glance that the LBBs were simpler ... which is not necessarily a strong point to him.<BR/><BR/>Dealing with an "apples and oranges" situation, the claim of "better" loses value. What could it mean to call <I>Gamma World</I> better than <I>Squad Leader</I>? What would be the point in trying to make someone feel as if he must "trash talk" one in order to play the other?<BR/><BR/>Having actually played some 3E and 4E, I think that's just the kind of situation this is. If they happened to be called something else, or if one's great RPG devotion happened to be something other than D&D, would one get so exercised? If you're not a <I>Rolemaster</I> fanatic, do you even have the foggiest about the differences among the editions, or from MERP, or what the heck HARP is?<BR/><BR/>Instead of working prejudice, I simply run games for whoever expresses an interest in playing. If someone's curious about how it works, then I explain that. He can form his own opinions. No amount of blather about my way being "better" is going to convince him that he's having more fun -- and I see no reason to cajole someone into playing a particular game when he has a more enjoyable way to spend his time.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-3439084337402118322009-02-28T11:30:00.000+02:002009-02-28T11:30:00.000+02:00... one key point that I should have mentioned in ...... one key point that I should have mentioned in the original post but didn't think to at the time, was the marketing for D&D 4e alternating between "the game remains the same" (ugh ugh ugh what awful execution, leaving alone the misrepresentation) and cutting down the previous edition(s) (while still selling it!) through misrepresentation to showcase how the new edition "fixed" "problems" that didn't exist in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Add in little bits like last year's April Fools Day thing which completely shit on the early artists and the GSL debacle...<BR/><BR/>uuuggghh.<BR/><BR/>Being good-natured okie-dokes (on a theoretical 'statement of intent' level at least... in "real life" I wouldn't rant like this unless specifically provoked, but again I'd rather play absolutely nothing than 4e or 3.xe... just like I played nothing instead of Vampire or Magic in the early 90s when it seemed that's all people were playing) seems like it's asking to be bulldozed considering the climate out there.<BR/><BR/>Funny thing is, in the early 80s, I wouldn't touch a non-TSR thing (at least as far as D&D went... I did play other games). Not because I so much cared about "official" D&D, but more because I had no idea what these things (mostly Role-Aids) actually were. It said they were compatible, but what did that <I>mean</I>? How good were they? I was ignorant about the whole process.<BR/><BR/>And I didn't even know what a Judges Guild was, beyond the mention in the DMG, until finding Dragonsfoot in the early 00s...<BR/><BR/>I suspect there is a lot of "positive education" that can be done beyond the online scene (who knows how many gamers are out there that don't pay any attention?), but finding that theoretical gamer who plays but hasn't been made aware of the traditional scene, it's all going to come down to:<BR/><BR/>"So it's just Dungeons and Dragons? Why are you playing old versions then?"<BR/><BR/>Although I think the guy is more likely to already have a negative attitude about it, just because it's not new, just because it's not state-of-the-gaming-art graphic design and appearance, just because there's something else out there with D&D officially stamped on it.<BR/><BR/>Plus, I really do think that most people avoid anyone who actually invests emotion in and actually cares about their pasttimes (which comes from even gamer and sci-fi types... hence bullshit concepts like "nerdrage")...<BR/><BR/>It's basically a no-win situation. :P Hard to keep a smiley face then...JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-91526521571325366552009-02-28T10:20:00.000+02:002009-02-28T10:20:00.000+02:00The whole thing is sort of funny to me, in the sam...The whole thing is sort of funny to me, in the same way it's funny when Apple Computer tries to sell its product as hip rebellion.<BR/><BR/>Something <I>was</I> afoot in 1978-79; I encountered it in a minority of gamers, but the "AD&D is Holy Writ" crowd was a noisy one. The attitude coming directly from Gygax probably helped sell a lot of other games. You didn't get that "I have set myself up as final arbiter of fantasy role playing" eyewash in <I>Tunnels & Trolls</I>, <I>The Arduin Grimoire</I> or <I>RuneQuest</I>.<BR/><BR/>For 30 years, the OD&D booklets themselves were a sort of shield against the growing cult of the One True Way.<BR/><BR/>So, what happens when the new "old school" turns from snubbing the <I>really</I> old game to embracing it? Well, part of what happens is the same old fetishism that drove people away from D&D. Only, now there are fewer to drive away other than those devoted to some other incarnation of the same TSR corporate line. Can you say "inbred," boys and girls?<BR/><BR/>To many enthusiasms being bruited, I can say, "been there and done that back in the '70s or '80s." I didn't feel a need to cling to them as if to a religion, though, thereby limiting the game's possibilities.<BR/><BR/>That seems to me just the opposite of what Gygax and Arneson wrote in the seminal work, and what Kask reiterated in forewords to supplements.<BR/><BR/>It's not about the rules you use, or <I>even the rules you don't use.</I> Getting all doctrinaire about either set is the problem. It is in my experience less of a problem in some other segments of the hobby because they're largely self-selected in the first place for not giving much of a damn about popularity or commercial "support."Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-24325415387438728982009-02-22T20:30:00.000+02:002009-02-22T20:30:00.000+02:00@Korgoth: Tolerance and Respect isn't being a "fre...@Korgoth: Tolerance and Respect isn't being a "freakin sissy gamer". Being intent on punching issues in the face rather than using reason and understanding mostly ends in pissing contests on who can come up or cite made up terms and shit.<BR/><BR/>Say what you're thinking but speak for yourself. Also don't label others if you don't wanna be branded.<BR/><BR/>If you need to refute you might not understand what's going on, ask clear questions, or provide an alternate view. A there can only be one attitude where you have to be wrong or right imprisons you in a mindset of endless ignorance.<BR/><BR/>If you need to attack a group you labeled don't play dumb and argue around it. Let go of ego and you can find the way.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-7502747692711684372009-02-22T20:20:00.000+02:002009-02-22T20:20:00.000+02:00>>I purposely published Supplement V: CARCOS...>>I purposely published Supplement V: CARCOSA without using the OGL. I didn't want to be beholden to WotC in even one iota.<BR/><BR/>Same deal with the Creature Generator, but... heeheehee...<BR/><BR/>Now that WotC has gone back on their open gaming ways and abandoned the OGL... isn't the OGL a way to say "Up yours!" to WotC as it currently stands?JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-2401907411267579032009-02-22T19:51:00.000+02:002009-02-22T19:51:00.000+02:00I think one thing that depresses me, both in the O...I think one thing that depresses me, both in the OSR and outside it, is what a bunch of freakin' sissies gamers tend to act like. I mean, you can hardly express a single consistent opinion without some dude getting his Hello Kitties in a bunch.<BR/><BR/>So say that Kask puts in his chips and lays out his cards on a particular issue. If you don't like it... go straight at him! Don't resort to passive/aggressive BS, don't resort to crying and hugging your stuffed animal, don't even engage your Caps Lock and begin spewing out misspelled obscenities (that's not manly, it's childish). Instead, grit your teeth, buckle down and *refute* him if he's wrong, or admit it if you think he's right.<BR/><BR/>But instead the discourse, even among obviously intelligent dudes, seems so bound up with bedwetting and emotional fragility that sometimes it seems that we'll never get anywhere.<BR/><BR/>Maybe it's all the estrogen they're putting in the milk these days. Sort of like a photo of an anti-piracy vessel I saw where the guy was manning a water cannon. Yeah, that's going to deter pirates... you'll spray them with water and then they'll surrender. Thank you, A-Team. I guess for Rome it was lead in the water, and for us it's gonna be female hormones in the dairy products.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-48452043839317263372009-02-22T18:16:00.000+02:002009-02-22T18:16:00.000+02:00I purposely published Supplement V: CARCOSA withou...I purposely published Supplement V: CARCOSA without using the OGL. I didn't want to be beholden to WotC in even one iota.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-84396392978486200342009-02-22T13:51:00.000+02:002009-02-22T13:51:00.000+02:00Sadly, I've been a warrior on the fronts of the ed...Sadly, I've been a warrior on the fronts of the edition wars for sometime now and I've just grown tired of it with the release of 4e. However, I've learned a great bit about the game "DnD" because of the trenches. Though I prefer to play 3.5, I can't wait until I get my OSRIC game running or Wednesday to come around for my 4e game over maptools. Though the Edition Wars are futile and their outcome predictable(Play what you want to play), they are necessary for the hobby to flourish.fliprushmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13548387842294608631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-12608052134831756542009-02-22T12:06:00.000+02:002009-02-22T12:06:00.000+02:00>>First of all, hubris in claiming that the ...>>First of all, hubris in claiming that the goal of the OSR is to fundamentally change the RPG landscape. <BR/><BR/>So what, we're all talking and playing and releasing and running convention games and everything to do... nothing beyond our own tables? Don't think so.<BR/><BR/>>>Of course, they created the OGL and SRD in order to allow people to do whatever the hell they like with their putrid corporate vision, and play - or even publish - it legally.<BR/><BR/>They created the OGL in hopes that other people would invest money in supporting WotC's own products. That people made games and products completely independent of and directly competing with WotC products was not in the grand plan... unless you can show a statement I've missed?<BR/><BR/>>>WotC, eh? What a bunch of oppressive monsters. Not letting people use their trademarks!<BR/><BR/>Actually, the OGL specifically restricts the use of trademarks.<BR/><BR/>>>Of course the fact that thousands of gamers love non original D&D doesn't stop Kask from having an opinion, but it very definitely negates his point that RPGs aren't fun anymore (as in, 'Who Sucked the Fun Out of RPGs?').<BR/><BR/>... not necessarily, depending on Kask's definition of fun... (which we both really would need to read the editorial to discuss further) The very presence of an "Old School Renaissance" signifies that Today's Shit Just Doesn't Cut It for a good number of people.<BR/><BR/>>>I would also like to say that the reason people get defensive is because they're not such big fans of being attacked. Maybe.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes, attacks are warranted.<BR/><BR/>>>Honestly, anyone who thinks that this is even a little bit important, or should have any bearing on what anyone who aren't the authors do, is espousing precisely the attitude you're accusing WotC of having.<BR/><BR/>Looking at a number of philosophies or methods and deciding that one is the better to follow does not make following one equivalent to following any of them!JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47121523883090393092009-02-22T11:52:00.000+02:002009-02-22T11:52:00.000+02:00>>I kinda thought 4e was indy pop. 4e still ...>>I kinda thought 4e was indy pop. <BR/><BR/>4e still has magic and swords and all that, so inflicting an indy pop label on it would be too cruel. Even for 4e.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-22470782464754401322009-02-22T07:57:00.000+02:002009-02-22T07:57:00.000+02:00I kinda thought 4e was indy pop. Anyway, I think t...I kinda thought 4e was indy pop. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think the end result of an 'edition war' will be a better understanding of play styles. <BR/><BR/>I think that even within the "old school revolution" there are differing play styles, and the same can be said about those playing the newer editions so there is always a misunderstanding when people takes sides and as someone said having a preference even passively places you on a side.<BR/><BR/>This is why I'm sure people will still continue to push buttons for reactions, or out of plain ignorance but I've noticed that because of it play styles are becoming more clearly defined, or at the very least easier to explain.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-1715748701225313522009-02-22T07:33:00.000+02:002009-02-22T07:33:00.000+02:00Preach it Brother Raggi! Speak the Word! I'm a...Preach it Brother Raggi! Speak the Word! I'm a Motorhead guy myself, not a C&C player, just a Motorhead lover. Though I have to say, my games are often more Gwar. Yeah, we've got guitars, we'll go to bars, we'll eat your car. Gwar! Gwar! Gwar!E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-44200102014991093872009-02-22T06:33:00.000+02:002009-02-22T06:33:00.000+02:00>>So which metal band represents 4e anyway?D...>>So which metal band represents 4e anyway?<BR/><BR/>Dragonforce. A useless band of fools that is so utterly new-school but has a load of people completely fooled that they're listening to oldschool metal.<BR/><BR/>I've been waiting ages for someone to ask that. :D<BR/><BR/>I'll get to Rocket's comment later.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-76557786955058502662009-02-22T04:16:00.000+02:002009-02-22T04:16:00.000+02:00So which metal band represents 4e anyway?4e is Isi...<I>So which metal band represents 4e anyway?</I><BR/><BR/>4e is <A HREF="http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=4844" REL="nofollow">Isis</A>. Lots of people like them, and I can sort of see why (they both have parts I appreciate and think are good ideas), but quite frankly they're just not all that interesting. Reading the 4e Monster Manual is a lot like listening to Oceanic - it has all the necessary elements, but... well. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, Jim, you suck and are completely wrong. First of all, hubris in claiming that the goal of the OSR is to fundamentally change the RPG landscape. Even if it did, the big names would come in and commodify the crap out of it, as you well know. So you are being both intrusive and naive.<BR/><BR/><I>Newer editions of the game are published by a division of a multinational corporation and a vested interest in promoting their vision, and guess what, that vision ain't ours.</I><BR/><BR/>No, it isn't. <BR/>Of course, they created the OGL and SRD in order to allow people to do whatever the hell they like with their putrid corporate vision, and play - or even publish - it <I>legally</I>. In fact, I seem to recall a number of retro-clones (read: all of them) using those very documents as their base. <BR/>Along, too, with vast swathes of more original 3rd party and homebrew games in many, many genres (not to mention the many others that have, at least, also benefitted from the terminology used by the SRD, which is universally recognisable).<BR/>WotC, eh? What a bunch of oppressive monsters. Not letting people use their trademarks!<BR/><BR/>Of course, they jerked it up with the GSL, but nonetheless they've still, explicitly speaking, done more to promote free expression in both mechanics and playstyle with their earlier gesture than, say, Gygax. Who we all know was very interested in stifling same towards the end of his career with TSR. <BR/><BR/><I>Better yet, how can you say he isn't right? Does the fun you are or are not having with later D&D, or another game, invalidate the statement that he thinks they monumentally fucked up by setting D&D down a course...</I><BR/><BR/>Cunning bit of wordplay there! Of course the fact that thousands of gamers love non original D&D doesn't stop Kask from having an opinion, but it <I>very definitely</I> negates his point that RPGs aren't fun anymore (as in, 'Who Sucked the Fun Out of RPGs?'). Yeah, I haven't read the editorial either, but would I be wrong in assuming that he thinks that games have had the fun sucked out of them?<BR/>I would also like to say that the reason people get defensive is because they're not such big fans of being attacked. Maybe.<BR/><BR/><I>I would think that the people who made the game have a good understanding about what it's about and the attitude you're supposed to approach with it.</I><BR/><BR/>Honestly, anyone who thinks that this is even a little bit important, or should have any bearing on what anyone who aren't the authors do, is espousing precisely the attitude you're accusing WotC of having.<BR/>I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but I just wanted to throw that in there, since this kind of thing does seem surprisingly common among old-school sorts.<BR/><BR/>And, yeah, I know:<BR/><BR/><I>(cue lots of links from people that focus on one sentence, or part thereof, and make fun of that as a complete absurd statement, without acknowledging the further explaining afterwards of the sentence)</I><BR/><BR/>But guess what? I'm not happy with your reasoning either.lrdrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01900523416216122890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-27043044262567184152009-02-22T01:53:00.000+02:002009-02-22T01:53:00.000+02:00Generally, I see your point and mostly agree with ...Generally, I see your point and mostly agree with it. I particularly agree with your caution about the difference between corporate and hobbyist interests. I've written a bit more about this <A HREF="http://sandboxofdoom.blogspot.com/2009/02/i-like-reading-grognardia.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>; if you have a chance, please take a look and leave a comment.Victor Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-88104513764820539912009-02-22T01:50:00.000+02:002009-02-22T01:50:00.000+02:00So which metal band represents 4e anyway?So which metal band represents 4e anyway?lokipanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462634973758898272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-66417941439390181992009-02-22T00:47:00.000+02:002009-02-22T00:47:00.000+02:00There are times when I indeed present arguments in...There are times when I indeed present arguments in a "one true way" fashion... but I specifically used the words "I prefer" in that instance to avoid that.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-22040760489640089682009-02-22T00:28:00.000+02:002009-02-22T00:28:00.000+02:00I believe, with all my heart, that saying, "I pref...<I>I believe, with all my heart, that saying, "I prefer this edition," is the same thing as saying, "The other editions aren't as good." It has to be.</I><BR/><BR/>I cannot say I agree with this, and indeed I think it seems at variance with some of your other comments, so i thought I would seek some clarification. Are you saying there is only one true way to have fun? That if something is "good" it must be good for everyone? I am very much of the opinion that editions are only subjectively good, and that preferences are not objective statements of fact about quality.<BR/><BR/>That is to say, if I say I prefer AD&D 2e, I am not saying that other people should to; it is rather a decleration of what kind of game best suits me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-1214444462463159602009-02-21T23:48:00.000+02:002009-02-21T23:48:00.000+02:00>>Why does someone who listens to metal give...>>Why does someone who listens to metal give a shit what something thinks about his style of role-play gaming?<BR/><BR/>Because unlike listening to music, gaming is a social activity and other people's participation is mandatory in order to do it.<BR/><BR/>>>Seriously, the old school gaming blogs are getting tedious with their in-fighting.<BR/><BR/>There's the door.<BR/><BR/>These blogs aren't "experts imparting wisdom on the unwashed masses," we're just fumbling fucknards gathering our thoughts and exploring in a search for each of our individual ways. Neverending journeys, not journals of how to reach a destination.<BR/><BR/>The "echo chamber" and "infighting" issues are, for the blog writers at least, excellent for pushing issues to the forefront and having each of us decide what we think of an issue.<BR/><BR/>We don't hold secret meetings in alliance behind closed doors so we can then better brainwash people to the cause, ya know.<BR/><BR/>... not that I'm invited to, anyway.<BR/><BR/>(unless TARGA counts, but declaring a "putting a special name on and reporting about the games we were playing anyway" week is hardly a conspiracy. ;))JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47429859795281243332009-02-21T23:29:00.000+02:002009-02-21T23:29:00.000+02:00Why does someone who listens to metal give a shit ...Why does someone who listens to metal give a shit what something thinks about his style of role-play gaming? Seriously, the old school gaming blogs are getting tedious with their in-fighting.christianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09650456794111980661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-53500405293339476552009-02-21T23:15:00.000+02:002009-02-21T23:15:00.000+02:00If you proclaim loudly that you're not on any ...<I>If you proclaim loudly that you're not on any side, but are still playing Good Old D&D, you're still taking a side. You're just one of the civilians away from the front... dropping out of old school and later on the same day blogging about one's Tunnels and Trolls game indeed. ;)</I><BR/><BR/>Touche. :)Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155926145150934199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-78839418377715326172009-02-21T21:35:00.000+02:002009-02-21T21:35:00.000+02:00A good long post just like the old days :)Sabbath,...A good <I>long</I> post just like the old days :)<BR/><BR/><I>Sabbath, Saxon, Angel Witch, Venom.</I><BR/><BR/>I have been waiting for an chance to suggest at some stage you post your thoughts on musical inspiration for a DMs trip to his Land-of-Awe.<BR/><BR/>Its not a 'My fav bands list' at all. More a handful of albums that recreate and sustain a mood for DM work.<BR/><BR/>Great favourites of mine are The Who and dear old Ludwig Van but I never use them for fantasy inspiration. Early metal emotion works for me. Thanks to you I gave Sabbath another listen and they fit the bill.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-54921410681795604052009-02-21T21:22:00.000+02:002009-02-21T21:22:00.000+02:00>>One contrary point:It's not a contrary...>>One contrary point:<BR/><BR/>It's not a contrary point, because I agree with everything you just said (as long as you mean <I>old</I> Nightwish ;)). And You're Doing It Right and you Get It as far as I'm concerned, whatever that's worth.<BR/><BR/>And as far as people claiming they are or aren't soldiers in the edition war, it's not what you proclaim, it's not about taking a side, it's not about grandstanding, it's about what you <I>do</I>. If you speak softly and go about your "oldschool" business, you're still in. If you proclaim loudly that you're not on any side, but are still playing Good Old D&D, you're still taking a side. You're just one of the civilians away from the front... dropping out of old school and later on the same day blogging about one's Tunnels and Trolls game indeed. ;)JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-11940936606528218072009-02-21T19:20:00.000+02:002009-02-21T19:20:00.000+02:00One contrary point:To a degree internal edition wa...One contrary point:<BR/><BR/>To a degree internal edition wars over pre-1989 editions, which basically covers OD&D with (and without supplements), AD&D, Holmes, B/X, BECMI/RC, and AD&D2 PHB/MM/DMG (but not black box D&D or AD&D2 Players options) is incompatible with the "DIY" ethic.<BR/><BR/>My attempt at getting an Old School group last year was BFRP because it reminded me of the Holmes plus PHB & DMG we played in late 70s/early 80s. <BR/><BR/>My more successful LL game today steals James M.'s theif, the SR and talent rules from T&T7, the spell casting rolls from Jason Vey's S&S, the spell research (since you can learn spells beyond what you get leveling up) from GAZ3, recreates the Chicago of the Dresden Files 1000 years after a magical holocaust with the Morrow Project home base added in, started with an AD&D module (U1), has an old High Fantasy module in the setting, is fueled by listening to Nightwish and the Cure, and is generally avoiding dungeons.<BR/><BR/>It's clearly old school as this is the closest to 1982 I've played since 1982. But what edition is it? Am I playing B/X and spitting on OD&D because I'm using B/X? But what about those Chainmail derived rules for spell casting? Or the BECMI research? Or the completely non-D&D SR system which has supplanted treasure as the principle way to get XP?<BR/><BR/>To be honest I think my game, your two games, James M's Dwimmermount, and all the others even The World of Thool are in the same edition regardless of which specific pre-1989 (or recreation) rules set is our starting point and regardless if our primary literary sources are Gygax's favorite weird tales, someone elses, or modern urban fantasy. We're all playing D&D. Hell, I even assert the T&T community was playing better D&D for the 90s than we were.<BR/><BR/>It's all in what Kask said in 1979 that you quote:<BR/><BR/><I>D & D was meant to be a free-wheeling game, only loosely bound by the parameters of the rules.</I><BR/><BR/>Pissing on someone who is running a free-wheeling, loosely bound game because they're using Metnzer instead of LBB is hugely missing the point. You and I might disagree about this feature added or that removed but we agree about the key feature and can learn from each other's games. That's what makes us different from the 3.x, D&D4, and WoD crowd.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-32932109828029455372009-02-21T16:35:00.000+02:002009-02-21T16:35:00.000+02:00Very well said.Very well said.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com