tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post6505382552214558219..comments2024-02-16T22:05:32.773+02:00Comments on LotFP: RPG: No Gods, No MastersJimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-45375324721763169752010-08-09T21:59:21.159+03:002010-08-09T21:59:21.159+03:00Hey, thanks for the shout-out. In return, a quote ...Hey, thanks for the shout-out. In return, a quote from Newton I ran into today:<br /><br />"For I see a man must either resolve to put out nothing new or become a slave to defend it." [Isaac Newton, Letter to Oldenburg, quoted in Westfall, Richard, Life of Isaac Newton, p. 107.]<br /><br />Thanks for showing the way to avoid that pernicious trap!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47751919614876798472010-07-16T20:18:49.083+03:002010-07-16T20:18:49.083+03:00@ChicagoWiz: Wow.
You know, I was crushed when yo...@ChicagoWiz: Wow.<br /><br />You know, I was crushed when you bailed on us. I always saw you (via your blog) as a positive force for gaming - OSR or no OSR - and really appreciated you for that. <br /><br />But "circle-wank" - really? Is this what you've become?<br /><br />I agree that there are aspects of "the OSR" (as ill-defined as that term is) that regularly diverge down absurdly useless and divisive paths (present tempest included). But to assert that this therefore means that the entire nebulous entity is - as you put it - a "circle-wank" is not only just as absurd, but extremely insulting to those of us who are part of this thing and who just as regularly avoid those paths.<br /><br />I can understand wanting to get off the merry-go-round, but how about a little respect for those who have chosen to bear with it and weather the eccentricities of the lunatic fringe?<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, you talk a good "I'm through with the OSR" line, but you're not being very convincing by behaving like a troll and posting inflammatory comments in response to just the sort of OSR bad behavior you claim to want no part of. It doesn't seem like you've left the OSR as much as it seems like you've decided to join the ranks of all that's wrong with it. What a fucking waste...<br /><br />As for the tempest at hand: it's nice to see that nothing's really changed during my respite.Christopher Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368794259249607299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-38030968202564062842010-07-15T05:37:46.680+03:002010-07-15T05:37:46.680+03:00It is the passion to see more people sit at the ta...<i>It is the passion to see more people sit at the table, our own and other peoples', that is THE reason why people are sharing, publishing, doing demos, writing blogs. </i><br /><br />On that we agree. I just don't see OSR "uber alles" as being the One True Way, nor do I see it necessary. But we've come a long way from the original assertion -- this isn't world hunger we're solving - it's a game. You like it your way, you see red roses. I don't. I think that's about as far as we'll get.<br /><br />@Michael - I see this constant bickering, this constant need to define, to limit, to make the "OSR" into some big kumbayah that we all must be a part of as a circle-jerk and it is. I see the creativity, the content and positive energy as something that doesn't need to be put into a neat little cheerleading box. So in that regard, yea, the "OSR" as a marketing demographic is an Internet fueled entity. <br /><br />The stuff that we all have participated in, and continue to participate in in our ways, the love of old school gaming and the good shit that happens when we sit down at tables, or when we make something that works - that's just part of the RPG hobby. It's been going on 40 years. This is a continuation of it and it'll be happening 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now. <br /><br />I can't say it much clearer than that or I'm going to keep repeating myself. And with that, I'm sure DM will love to have the last word and I relinquish the floor and the blog comments to him. I'll keep on keeping on without the "OSR".Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-89050372250493664432010-07-15T01:02:17.910+03:002010-07-15T01:02:17.910+03:00The fact that I game the way I want, how I want, w...<i>The fact that I game the way I want, how I want, when I want and that I've washed my hands of being a cheerleader for (thanks Matt) an Internet fueled circle-wank doesn't take away my passion.</i><br /><br />I've kept my trap shut during this whole debacle, but I would like to ask you to please clarify what you consider "an Internet fueled circle-wank," Michael.<br /><br />I understand you have some problems with people associated with this thing of ours, perhaps rightfully so. But if you are calling the entire OSR nothing more that an "Internet fueled circle-wank," that's a mighty big brush you're painting with and I for one don't appreciate being splattered with the paint you're using.<br /><br />As someone who has be a supporter of yours and wished you only well, I must take offense if it is your intent to dismiss the accomplishments, goals, and intentions of everyone involved in the thing of our as one big circle jerk.<br /><br />That saddens me and it does make you seem a bitter, bitter man. And I really don't think that's the case.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-59899409682043414742010-07-15T00:29:41.427+03:002010-07-15T00:29:41.427+03:00You don't have a single clue to what goes on i...<i>You don't have a single clue to what goes on in my life</i><br /><br />You're right, the only clue we can go by is your writing style before and after your TARGA incident, where you've gone from being a very positive person, to a very negative one. It's sad to see.<br /><br /><i>You want to be the cheerleader for the so-called OSR? Fine. You don't like it that I don't see it as the be-all, end-all, so fucking what?</i><br /><br />I <b>don't</b> see it as "the be-all, end-all", but I do see the OSR as a positive trend that is achieving great things in the hobby, both in terms of publishing and bringing people together to play games. I don't give a stuff that you now hate the OSR, but if you're going to talk out of your arse about it, then I feel I've got a right to challenge you and put forward the other side of the story - and there is another side to this story.<br /><br /><i>My passion is for the people who sit at my table and for the people who care more about the game than for TARGA, OSR, and all the petty bullshit that goes into it.</i><br /><br />As is the passion of those moving within the OSR, only you've let your prejudice and anger blind you to it. It is the passion to see more people sit at the table, our own and other peoples', that is THE reason why people are sharing, publishing, doing demos, writing blogs. Our goals and motivations are the same as yours, but you've become so focused on personalities, you can't see the forest for the trees.<br /><br /><i>When you sit across from me face to face, with either a beer or bike or punching my lights out, then you'll know me. Otherwise, the phrase "keyboard commando" really applies. </i><br /><br />And that Michael is a two-way street.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-80911131588173880582010-07-14T18:02:52.390+03:002010-07-14T18:02:52.390+03:00@DM - @ChicagoWiz - Michael, just because you'...@DM - <i>@ChicagoWiz - Michael, just because you've lost your passion, there's no need for you to throw your wet blanket over the rest of us. Believe it or not it's actually OK to be passionate about a hobby. You used to be once. </i><br /><br />Pfft. You know nothing about me. You don't have a single clue to what goes on in my life, you don't sit at my game table, you don't participate in my online game. In short, you only know me through these blog comments where we've taken opposites sides.<br /><br />You want to be the cheerleader for the so-called OSR? Fine. You don't like it that I don't see it as the be-all, end-all, so fucking what? The fact that I game the way I want, how I want, when I want and that I've washed my hands of being a cheerleader for (thanks Matt) an Internet fueled circle-wank doesn't take away my passion.<br /><br />My passion is for the people who sit at my table and for the people who care more about the game than for TARGA, OSR, and all the petty bullshit that goes into it. My passion isn't for cheerleading for publishers. It's for people like Rients, Max in Milwaukee, the people who put together GaryCon and WinterWar and the places where differences are made.<br /><br />In short, I'm for the energy, not the machine.<br /><br />When you sit across from me face to face, with either a beer or bike or punching my lights out, then you'll know me. Otherwise, the phrase "keyboard commando" really applies.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-38935964462389690852010-07-14T15:43:42.613+03:002010-07-14T15:43:42.613+03:00I've been thinking about the "better than...I've been thinking about the "better than TSR" thing.<br /><br />I think it would be important to note that they didn't have computers. And digital copiers and printers that could handle extremely high resolutions and produce cheaply in quantity. <br /><br />Initial mastering could be a painstaking process, cutting the page elements with a razor blade and assembling by hand. <br /><br />Of course the production values are going to be higher. And cheaper to produce. <br /><br />Note that I'm not speaking to content. That's a different discussion. Just saying it's a lot easier now to make a good looking product, even for a hobbyist.GragSmashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13941571149100716787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-5004846243936817002010-07-14T05:56:23.510+03:002010-07-14T05:56:23.510+03:00M'eh. People need to play the games they want ...M'eh. People need to play the games they want to play and remember that on the internet, no one knows your a dog.Joe G Kushnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02454826299896049587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-90741711199236830272010-07-14T04:56:31.604+03:002010-07-14T04:56:31.604+03:00My take here:
http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot....My take here:<br /><br />http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-final-take-on-latest-osr-debate.html<br /><br />(too long for blogger, and i dont want to go thru the trouble of breaking it up again like I just had to do for LOTGD)Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-81815357699645963312010-07-14T02:14:20.195+03:002010-07-14T02:14:20.195+03:00I'm not asking Mr. Raggi to end World Hunger. ...I'm not asking Mr. Raggi to end World Hunger. I'm asking him to continue being the kick-ass game designer, he's proven himself to be. <i>My</i> world is Richer, with Mr. Raggi in it and doing his thing.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-83624788285626590252010-07-14T00:34:01.290+03:002010-07-14T00:34:01.290+03:00While I do not believe Jim could feed millions all...While I do not believe Jim could feed millions all by himself, he certainly would a starving family.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47898009228845608682010-07-14T00:22:08.331+03:002010-07-14T00:22:08.331+03:00I actually think the LOTFP game will solve the pro...I actually think the LOTFP game will solve the problem of world hunger and the OSR will bring about world peace.dogrodeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11460590878877571652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-44856485616042016992010-07-14T00:21:03.131+03:002010-07-14T00:21:03.131+03:00You're writing a game, not ending world hunger...<i>You're writing a game, not ending world hunger. Try to keep that perspective, huh?</i><br /><br />@ChicagoWiz - Michael, just because you've lost your passion, there's no need for you to throw your wet blanket over the rest of us. Believe it or not it's actually OK to be passionate about a hobby. You used to be once.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-800470964562026212010-07-14T00:05:04.264+03:002010-07-14T00:05:04.264+03:00Although pride is justified, and it looks good...
...Although pride is justified, and it looks good...<br /><br />It all does come across as pretty sanctimonious, arrogant, and sort of like the goth kids from South Park. More passive aggressive than the now-infamous anti-James posting, but still aggressive.<br /><br />And to be clear, we are all in it to make money, and sales do matter. Argue extent of import, but it matters, highly. If not, do it non-profit and distribute PDFs for free unlimitedly in the interest of spreading that which is beautiful. Or, don't sell it at all, have one boxed set. <br /><br />Ah yes, I acknowledge that sales are overrated correlation as to how "good" something is, but it is a referendum upon the extent of its influence. And there is SOME correlation, albeit moderate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-50102372063307343102010-07-13T21:53:47.353+03:002010-07-13T21:53:47.353+03:00Are people even reading the post before they comme...Are people even reading the post before they comment? Because, you know, in some cases it really doesn't look like it.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-72063218122659909332010-07-13T21:49:45.683+03:002010-07-13T21:49:45.683+03:00Was that only in march? I thought it was longer a...Was that only in march? I thought it was longer ago.GragSmashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13941571149100716787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-3535566491825578092010-07-13T20:45:26.130+03:002010-07-13T20:45:26.130+03:00This exchange was entertaining a few days ago, but...This exchange was entertaining a few days ago, but it's getting tiresome. Can we go back to that other really edifying "debate" back in March about how OSR threatens to destroy the porn movement ... or how did that one go?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10583067822701744894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-52994257071343700542010-07-13T19:16:23.108+03:002010-07-13T19:16:23.108+03:00Why is it old farts get their dander up when a you...Why is it old farts get their dander up when a young 'un gets a little cocky? Maybe they can't remember that age. <br /><br />I read The People of Pembroktenshire all the way through for the first time this morning. I'm resolving to find a way to use it with my gaming group.<br /><br />Keep going, James, and don't let us old farts slow you down.Santahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01977863395278912279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-83141958393355803912010-07-13T19:04:39.751+03:002010-07-13T19:04:39.751+03:00Great post!Great post!anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-73177550427927305032010-07-13T18:23:38.578+03:002010-07-13T18:23:38.578+03:00And the hyperbole continues, perhaps as a result o...And the hyperbole continues, perhaps as a result of trying to increase interest and "buzz" prior to a release?<br /><br />The content and interest is great. It's no different than the interest and content of any other hobby that has seen a resurgence due to the collaborative nature of the Internet and the freeing nature of open source type licensing.<br /><br />Open Source Software "OSS" was the big thing in the late 90s/early 00s. It had it's buzz, it's 15 minutes but it continues on mainly because people are shutting up and coding and not trying to over-inflate their importance. They make a significant contribution, but they're not the be-all, end-all and they certainly DO stand on the shoulder of giants. As does anyone who picks up the pen or hits the keyboard to write D&D-related material.<br /><br />The more you keep pounding away at "OSR uber alles", the more this just sounds like you want to make sure you have a big enough audience to appeal to. There are so many people who still pick up the 1e/BECMI books that couldn't give a crap less, just as there are millions of people who deploy their websites to an Apache (open source webserver software) srever and don't give a crap about OSS. <br /><br />You're writing a game, not ending world hunger. Try to keep that perspective, huh?Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-28199570981920346772010-07-13T18:11:32.056+03:002010-07-13T18:11:32.056+03:00Beautifully put, James. Try as I might, I can'...Beautifully put, James. Try as I might, I can't find anything to add to it. You are exactly right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-45938020531619456732010-07-13T18:11:04.824+03:002010-07-13T18:11:04.824+03:00For those of us who deeply respect legacy and trad...For those of us who deeply respect legacy and tradition, it's easy to let our appreciation for the great accomplishments of Gygax, Arneson, and others blind us to the fact that they were just men and women, and what they did we can do, too. In our society it is far to easy to become passive consumers, voters, fans, to forget that the original spirit that created and animated the RPG movement was the DIY hobbyist impulse, which is an active and empowering one, not a passive one.<br /><br />Gygax during some of his TSR years lost track of that, when he was trying to standardize the game for tournaments and to get everyone to play it TSR's way, using official supplements only. This is the same man who previously pushed the DIY approach to D&D, and would later return to his roots, sadder but wiser for his time spent in the wilderness, as it were, and reinvigorated by his return to the original spirit of the game. I can respect him and his accomplishments and recognize my debt to him without pretending that he was some kind of perfect angel who always got things right.<br /><br />Likewise each of those people who made what we do possible. They each have their stories of the tensions between the great spirit that moved them and the realities of business or life or personality conflicts that made things difficult for them to always find their way.<br /><br />Much of the difference between respect and idolization lies in recognizing the people for who they were rather than reducing them to unattainable marble caricatures. That kind of honesty about who they were makes their accomplishments all the more impressive, since they had to struggle for greatness; it wasn't easy. It is also more liberating, because if greatness is possible, if it's not just some distant unattainable ideal, then what's to stop us from going forth in the world to try to make great things happen ourselves?<br /><br />Sure, no one is going to invent D&D again, but that's not some kind of insult; it's good news. It's why we can build on that work and create other great things that reinvent or extend that legacy. As long as we're true to the empowering spirit that created RPG gaming in the first place, we, too, can do great things<br /><br />I'm with Jim that sales figures are not the important thing about his post, about the OSR in general. How great an idea is and how well the products made from it sell are often unrelated in this imperfect world. When a great idea's products sell well, we're going to cheer, sure, but don't expect us to feel contempt for the great products that only sell a few copies, or none, or that are entirely free.<br /><br />Many good people are writing many good old-school gaming products today, and the spirit of DIY hobbyist gaming is alive and well. Jim's right. It's impressive and worthy of note.<br /><br />Great post, Jim.Rick Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01707062453047354335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-22749110585537314472010-07-13T18:09:30.772+03:002010-07-13T18:09:30.772+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-52781068065173259332010-07-13T17:58:27.087+03:002010-07-13T17:58:27.087+03:00Comparing sales of TSR vs. OSR sounds like one of ...Comparing sales of TSR vs. OSR sounds like one of the less coherent ways of measuring anything. How many PDFs did TSR sell? What sort of print-on-demand numbers did they achieve? Add in that TSR's sales numbers are sales to distributors and most OSR stuff has no middleman and we're well past apples and oranges and into comparing apples and Studebakers with this scheme.Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-47119876506868456182010-07-13T17:43:15.503+03:002010-07-13T17:43:15.503+03:00Very nicely stated, Jim. There's something sp...Very nicely stated, Jim. There's something special going on right now in the OSR (or "OSR") community - a creative generosity that may or may not last. These things usually don't. But for right now the OSR zeitgeist deserves celebration by anyone who enjoys the singular and communal creativity that is the beating heart of the RPG hobby.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551480034601737297noreply@blogger.com