tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post5082509097792142861..comments2024-02-16T22:05:32.773+02:00Comments on LotFP: RPG: Hanging in the BalanceJimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-16422087424429515292009-07-06T00:19:16.194+03:002009-07-06T00:19:16.194+03:00One thing about Moorcock's heroes like Elric, ...One thing about Moorcock's heroes like Elric, Erekose, and possibly Corum, is that they often do seem to have a genuine choice which side of Law/Chaos to pick - the 'GM' (in Moorcockiverse, that'd be the Cosmic Hand I guess) seems ready to go in either direction. This differs from eg LotR type fantasy where clearly the hero has to side with Good, or there's no story.<br /><br />On Finland & religion, I get what you say - my Finnish in-laws include a Minister & his family. :)Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-90742336271160548162009-07-05T04:14:07.830+03:002009-07-05T04:14:07.830+03:00>>Is this an American thing, or a Finnish th...>>Is this an American thing, or a Finnish thing?<br /><br />Both. Before coming to Finland, I was told it's the most unreligious country EVAR~! It is quite a change from the States but I managed to go to a religious school (as part of my integration program, no less) and have had a good number of religious acquaintances, including ordained people.<br /><br />It should be no surprise to anyone that the US is superreligious, and even though I made no effort to put myself in the vicinity of that sort of thing, friend-of-a-friend is a powerful thing.<br /><br />As for the content of the post and the responses so far, I will get back to these last few responses. :)JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-89206130259595694572009-07-05T01:38:05.024+03:002009-07-05T01:38:05.024+03:00I've often seen players whose PCs side with Ch...I've often seen players whose PCs side with Chaos and become Champions of Graz'zt and such.<br /><br />I do think D3 is better without Q1 (mostly because Q1 makes no sense as a sequel), but I'm also a fan of Moorcock and his god-bashing heroes like Corum. Or the Iliad for that matter, with mortal heroes battling deities on the Trojan plain. So overall I think your post is kinda lame, and certainly unncessarily constricting.<br /><br />Also - everyone knows a wide variety of Christian priests and ministers? Really? Is this an American thing, or a Finnish thing? Because here in England, that'd be pretty rare.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-40658816919477441402009-07-02T19:44:18.654+03:002009-07-02T19:44:18.654+03:00Part of the joy of my memories of very early ga,es...Part of the joy of my memories of very early ga,es in which I was player is that we didn't REALLY give alignment much thought. <br /><br />I wonder if we weren't happier then.<br /><br />We didn't worry about the ethical considerations involved in going into tunnels underground, killing things and coming out with sacks of loot --- I was really just hoping I could reach level 3 so I could learn the invisibility spell.<br /><br />"Good" and "Evil" or "Law" and "Chaos" were more like teams than philosophies. We didn't worry about WHY the kobolds were evil, we just knew if we killed enough of them before they killed us we could then get strong enough to challenge orcs, then gnolls, then bugbears, etc.<br /><br />My original DM (the one who taught us how to play via the Holmes Rule book and Dungeon Geomorphs back in 1978) did not focus much on alignment at all as I recall, although I was looking over some old player character sheets and saw 'alignment language' written under languages on each one --- for the life of me I can't recall ever having been in a game where my character tried talking to someone in 'chaotic good.' Alignment only came into play (as I recall) when we wanted to use some sort of magic item that was limited to one alignment or another or if we wanted to befriend something of like alignment, like a blink dog.<br /><br />Player characters didn't normally attack one another simply because a) we were friends and usually wanted to get along and kill orcs rather than each other and b) players who tried it found the rate at which their PCs died when every other player ganged up on them discouraging and c) I remember one game when we were about 15 where one guy (can't recall his name) was being an ass so we killed his character (in game) stole his stuff and then burned the body so he couldn't be raised. He left in a huff. Maybe it was a mean thing to do, but as I recall he was a real jerk so rather than constantly attempting to keep the game going despite him, we gave him the boot and played a little more happily after that. It had nothing to do with character alignment and everything to do with the one player behaving like a hormone tortured 15 year old with A.D.H.D. (which is probably what he was).<br /><br />These days I'm an occassional player, no longer a DM, and I grow wistful for the simpler times of D&D. Not just simpler rules (please, God, no more skill checks), but simpler games with simpler goals and the simple fun of attempting to find out 'what happens next' rather than some form of elaborate collaborative fiction. Unfortunately, at least in my area, such games seem out of fashion.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-23623298668683466812009-07-02T16:45:20.012+03:002009-07-02T16:45:20.012+03:00I think, and this is just a rambling-no-real-analy...I think, and this is just a rambling-no-real-analysis kind of thought.. is that I don't agree with your assessment that PCs have any choice.<br /><br />Gods, this could be a huge comment or simple comment with a lot unsaid. *sigh*<br /><br />I think the classic "Heaven vs Hell" struggle is a stage. Man may be pawns, but Man is also key/central. It's through their manipulation and our overcoming of said manipulation to achieve what we desire that is the real plot. <br /><br />Heaven/Hell have struggled through the ages - and Man has allied with them in various ways and forms through the ages. Sometimes we can overshadow their plots, sometimes we can't.<br /><br />The struggle can be the flavor and backdrop for the 1-6 level characters. Contribute in small ways to EITHER side. You can have all sorts of morality plays where indeed, Man interprets and effects good/evil, but the Heaven/Hell adds an interesting flavor to it. <br /><br />At later levels, the adventurers can actually cause change - they can rival the angels and demons to carve out their strongholds in war torn earth and possibly in Heaven and Hell as well.<br /><br />I think, with an open-minded GM who is willing to set the stage and let the players drive the story - yes, players can side with Hell and the campaign continue. After all, if the players side with Hell, then the "monsters" are Heaven's agents and angels, no?<br /><br />Of course it's OK if the players aren't interested in "this weeks plot" - but then, when I read that, I think that that we're back to story/plot-driven - I'm thinking that a sandbox with "the ticking clock" will continue on, and I'll have to account for changes w/out PC involvement. That's OK, in my book.<br /><br />If they fail, same deal. Failure can happen. That doesn't kill the campaign, for a good GM can still give them options. <br /><br />War may be filled with "must win" situations from the generals POV, but from the combatants, it's grind grind grind with panic filled moments that are already chaotic.<br /><br />My Dark Ages campaign is actually somewhat a take on this, now that I'm thinking about it.<br /><br />If you don't want/like these kinds of games, that's cool - but I think they're doable and can be enjoyable.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-32910792946689319562009-07-02T07:28:06.531+03:002009-07-02T07:28:06.531+03:00>>I'm curious to your take on those kind...>>I'm curious to your take on those kinds of campaigns.<br /><br />Oh yeah, *now* provide me with a focus after I'd spent hours on that rambling monstrosity of a post. :P<br /><br />I'm not familiar with the Diablo games specifically, but the idea of a Heaven vs Hell game (or any sort of monolithic Good Guy vs Bad Guy scenario, say CONTROL vs KAOS) is that the PCs really don't have any choice in the matter.<br /><br />Is it really a possibility to side with Hell (or KAOS) without killing the campaign? If the PCs aren't interested in foiling this week's plot, is that OK? What if they are interested but fail to stop this week's plot? Aren't all the scenarios in such conflicts rather, ahhh, full of must-win situations? Or are the bad guys playing for low stakes?JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-65493910645395351162009-07-02T03:33:19.456+03:002009-07-02T03:33:19.456+03:00Are you familiar with the Diablo series of CRPGs b...Are you familiar with the Diablo series of CRPGs by Blizzard?<br /><br />The whole basis of reality is the war between "Heaven" and "Hell" - and that is what most of the struggles are about.<br /><br />I'm curious to your take on those kinds of campaigns.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6670029344758253148.post-65841190818860378502009-07-02T02:37:49.764+03:002009-07-02T02:37:49.764+03:00Well, you lost me after a bit. However your first ...Well, you lost me after a bit. However your first paragraph on evil seems to describe the world in which we live quite well - I think.Thesauroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305052511095551483noreply@blogger.com